Panasonic FM & FC are good caps which gives a different sonic signature used at decoupling caps. FM are no better, their ESR is too close and even not always better when choosing it over the FC.
Does the black one are FM (I believe they are too little to be Nichicon KZ as I readed before ?!). If so you can be confident in the choice of the designer if he mixed it : it says the dac was optimised by choosing the caps...
As already said by the Leading Lights here (which read more than they go to the concerts), a cap marked M has a capacitance value with 20% precision only. As it was already said the amount of capacitance in rectifier position is not so critic as far the minimum is guaranted. It's only in frequency filter than the capacitance values ARE important !
But a Pan FC 1800/35V is not sounding even at rectifier position than a Panasonic FC 2200/35 V and Panasonic FM will give also a different subjective result at ears.
I'm not saying it's a serious path for improvment, it may as it may not or even not needed at all ! There are not two caps sounding the same in a good whole setup. Basicly the Tang loss is improving at higher capacitance/voltage values. But as not said before, the best ESR will not give always a better sounding result in that position : it's far to be a guaranty ! If the rectifier filtering is alone (no CLC or CRC) : it can better to have a bad ESR instead...
I will be more worried by the ceramic caps near the tuvbes if used as parrallel decoupling cap with the little aluminium ones. If me, just by curiosity I will remove it carrefully (to go back if needed) to listen how it sounds without it (if they are // only with the aluminium caps).
The Monacor DC blocking cap is perhaps also a path of improvmrent . MKT is ok but MKP or even the less good on paper Mylar may give different result. For instance russian caps are cheap : mylar K73-16 for instance, also some paper in oïl...
The price is not a good factor, for instance a good designer who listen more than he look at his scope choose on his AMR CD, simple MKP from Mundorf for the tubes output DC position... and it was not for saving few pounds !
Sorry for the thousand words, it was easier for me than a picture as I'm lazy ! That my modest experience with caps, so subjectiv and to take with a grain of salt !
Does the black one are FM (I believe they are too little to be Nichicon KZ as I readed before ?!). If so you can be confident in the choice of the designer if he mixed it : it says the dac was optimised by choosing the caps...
As already said by the Leading Lights here (which read more than they go to the concerts), a cap marked M has a capacitance value with 20% precision only. As it was already said the amount of capacitance in rectifier position is not so critic as far the minimum is guaranted. It's only in frequency filter than the capacitance values ARE important !
But a Pan FC 1800/35V is not sounding even at rectifier position than a Panasonic FC 2200/35 V and Panasonic FM will give also a different subjective result at ears.
I'm not saying it's a serious path for improvment, it may as it may not or even not needed at all ! There are not two caps sounding the same in a good whole setup. Basicly the Tang loss is improving at higher capacitance/voltage values. But as not said before, the best ESR will not give always a better sounding result in that position : it's far to be a guaranty ! If the rectifier filtering is alone (no CLC or CRC) : it can better to have a bad ESR instead...
I will be more worried by the ceramic caps near the tuvbes if used as parrallel decoupling cap with the little aluminium ones. If me, just by curiosity I will remove it carrefully (to go back if needed) to listen how it sounds without it (if they are // only with the aluminium caps).
The Monacor DC blocking cap is perhaps also a path of improvmrent . MKT is ok but MKP or even the less good on paper Mylar may give different result. For instance russian caps are cheap : mylar K73-16 for instance, also some paper in oïl...
The price is not a good factor, for instance a good designer who listen more than he look at his scope choose on his AMR CD, simple MKP from Mundorf for the tubes output DC position... and it was not for saving few pounds !
Sorry for the thousand words, it was easier for me than a picture as I'm lazy ! That my modest experience with caps, so subjectiv and to take with a grain of salt !
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Yes, probably ignorant then as Dan Wemmer of Cary said: "If you upgrade the analogue signal cable to high end wiring it will make a big difference. This is the analogue wiring from the DAC board to the buffer board”.
Yes, context does indeed matter.
This week we blindly tested three hybrid amplifiers that were built with the identical parts, except for the power supply filter capacitors for the SS section. They all had the same values - 10 000uF at 50V. The first had Epcos LL capacitors, the second Nichicon FG and the third with Nichicons again with silver writing, not sure about the series.
After a few swaps, everyone agreed the first one sounded the best. The Epcos in fact were the cheapest capacitors.
The one with the most expensive capacitors (Nichicon silver writings) sounded the worst and everyone confirmed it, especially nervous in the midrange.
Just another example that expensive things don't mean necessarily good.
After a few swaps, everyone agreed the first one sounded the best. The Epcos in fact were the cheapest capacitors.
The one with the most expensive capacitors (Nichicon silver writings) sounded the worst and everyone confirmed it, especially nervous in the midrange.
Just another example that expensive things don't mean necessarily good.
Yes! ~ except that commercial plugging would have no value in this case because it was purely advice i.e. no parts or labour involved - therefore no profit (£) for them in anyway! They didn't personally gain anything by stating this, so why bother making it up?
No! ~ can you?
Please remember I am asking the questions for help, not providing the answers!
But with idiotic replies like this it is certain I won't gain the knowledge from members like you!
Typical ridicule, not support, advice or help! Thanks for that, nice one, you deserve a medal.
Please continue if it floats your boat in some way, I suppose other TWISTED members will get a cheap thrill out of it; no doubt!
I can see a lot of frustration in this thread on all sides. I hope I can sort this out without raising too much ire.
On the other hand, 40 years seems an awfully long time to be swapping electronic components, yet apparently knowing so little about them. I think that's fine if you're swapping failed components with good ones, but here the device appears to work and you're looking for "better" components. Your main, perhaps only question in this thread has been "which make and model capacitor sounds best?" but it seems you haven't bothered to look up data published by manufacturers that might help you to answer these questions yourself, or otherwise learn about differences. I see this as a lack of initiative.
You might say "but I just want to swap these and then listen to some good music." Indeed we all do, but are things ever that simple? You never know if someone recommending a particular model knows what he's talking about or not. This is Teh Internet after all.
Also, capacitors are just one of many components that might affect sound. Depending on the unit, your efforts might be more productive if you concentrate on other parts.
I think if you want to be spoonfed answers, you can get that on many audio forums, but here we're about learning as much as we reasonably can about things, and we encourage other forum members to do the same.
Even presuming you get an "excellent recommendation" from a poster here, you haven't learned anything about why a particular model was recommended, and if later down the road it's discontinued and you want to modify a new device, you're back at square one. But with enogh knowledge, you would be able to decide on a good substitute.
If you really want some "good knowledge" read through some electronics literature - there's a lot that's free online (many basic electronics sites, and look for scans of Forrest Mims "Engineers Notebook" booklets), and as you advance there are some good books that teach a lot. Perhaps the most famous and recommended is "The Art of Electronics." The 3rd Edition has recently come out, but the 2nd Edition is available used and still has a wealth of information.
This may not be quite the knowledge you're asking for, but I see this as the kind of knowledge we have to give on diyaudio.
Congratulations on still being alive!
On the other hand, 40 years seems an awfully long time to be swapping electronic components, yet apparently knowing so little about them. I think that's fine if you're swapping failed components with good ones, but here the device appears to work and you're looking for "better" components. Your main, perhaps only question in this thread has been "which make and model capacitor sounds best?" but it seems you haven't bothered to look up data published by manufacturers that might help you to answer these questions yourself, or otherwise learn about differences. I see this as a lack of initiative.
You might say "but I just want to swap these and then listen to some good music." Indeed we all do, but are things ever that simple? You never know if someone recommending a particular model knows what he's talking about or not. This is Teh Internet after all.
Also, capacitors are just one of many components that might affect sound. Depending on the unit, your efforts might be more productive if you concentrate on other parts.
I think if you want to be spoonfed answers, you can get that on many audio forums, but here we're about learning as much as we reasonably can about things, and we encourage other forum members to do the same.
Even presuming you get an "excellent recommendation" from a poster here, you haven't learned anything about why a particular model was recommended, and if later down the road it's discontinued and you want to modify a new device, you're back at square one. But with enogh knowledge, you would be able to decide on a good substitute.
If you really want some "good knowledge" read through some electronics literature - there's a lot that's free online (many basic electronics sites, and look for scans of Forrest Mims "Engineers Notebook" booklets), and as you advance there are some good books that teach a lot. Perhaps the most famous and recommended is "The Art of Electronics." The 3rd Edition has recently come out, but the 2nd Edition is available used and still has a wealth of information.
This may not be quite the knowledge you're asking for, but I see this as the kind of knowledge we have to give on diyaudio.
I'll ask the question with different words:No! ~ can you?
Please remember I am asking the questions for help, not providing the answers!
But with idiotic replies like this it is certain I won't gain the knowledge from members like you!
Typical ridicule, not support, advice or help! Thanks for that, nice one, you deserve a medal.
Please continue if it floats your boat in some way, I suppose other TWISTED members will get a cheap thrill out of it; no doubt!
Can you attach your pic, so that we can see it?
I have no idea who Dan Wemmer is and no nothing of Cary; however I can be absolutely certain that the laws of physics for them are exactly the same as the laws of physics for me and for you. It is up to you whether you believe this or not, but it remains true anyway.thedoc735 said:
Audiophile street cred? Personal belief, yet unsustained by facts? People can sincerely believe all sorts of things. Experience has also taught me to be cautious of second-hand quotations, as what the original 'expert' said can be misunderstood or wrested from a carefully constructed context or set of caveats.
Anyway, let us assume for a moment that component minor parasitics etc. are relevant for audio behaviour. Even then the actual effect would depend on circuit details, so the fact that Brand X beats Brand Y in circuit P may say nothing at all about how they would behave in circuit Q. You would need to know exactly which parameter of Brand X meant that it worked well in P, and then understand circuit Q well enough to evaluate how this parameter would affect that circuit.
This statement has not been carefully constructed by me, I have copied it EXACTLY as it is. There was nothing written before or after this statement regarding analogue signal wiring; it is a one off sentence! "If you upgrade the analogue signal cable to high end wiring it will make a big difference. This is the analogue wiring from the DAC board to the buffer board”.
Yes, I believe components do behave differently in different circuits and therefore the only way to evaluate components is in a practical hands on listening test, not an academic theory or formula (not physics or maths). An equation is not a substitute for what the ears, hear i.e. try different caps for example and see which sounds best to you personally (another person may prefer a different configuration altogether).
Yes, I have looked up datasheets and it seems that the ones with the most favourable parameters ARE NOT the ones branded as audio grade 😱
Yes the internet is full of bullshiters!
Other components have also been concentrated on.
Like I said: "Basically you;re saying don't come to DIY forum for useful knowledge - go somewhere else! Go read a book."?
Oh wait!
You have knowledge to give? So teach, don't ridicule.
No!
i re-phrased the question:
can anyone suggest good quality caps for the cary 100t DAC with these values: (on the output/buffer board)
1800uf + 35v ?
150uf + 35v ?
& could I substitute:
1800 for 2200uF ?
150 for 220uF ?
...the reason for the re-phrase was because "audio grade" proved to be a bad 'turn of phrase'. What is 'best' to me personally may not be best to someone else's ears. Good quality is NOT the same as (best sounding, as that is quite a personal experience).
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Very well said.
thedoc,
I really don't think you will be happy with any advise given in this thread.
Seems to me your questions have been answered, but you don't want to see the truth.
Maybe step away from the computer for a few days. Calm down. Then go back and re read this thread from the start in a more objective mind set.
I may suggest you a funny experience for the fun to test how two close caps may give different subjective results ! After all it's diy and it's funnier to test !
You see the two FC 1800/35V on the right side of the board ? Try to swap them by the sames values but the other shape factor they have at Panasonic catalog : it's a longer can body with a better ESR and a lower pitch between the legs : 5 mm, so better inductance. This two caps "sound" different, because despite they are both 1800/35V from the same serie, their spec are not the same even if close ! (for me the longer one with less diameter size gives often a better result in supply decoupling and reservoir cap)... but here the purpose is to test for the fun... both caps are good, rated at 105°c, automotive solidity compatble and relativly long life (the FR serie is better on this life side but not giving better subjective sounding results... choose your trade offs !)
Now is it mandatory for improvment, as said the caps are not the first factor in tweaking as pointed out. But I bet the FM or FC 2200 uF will give you a muddier sound... I will not bother with that, you have already among the best on your board ! Now it's no forbidden to play, it's a hobby and in a hobby, better result is not always the targett !
You see the two FC 1800/35V on the right side of the board ? Try to swap them by the sames values but the other shape factor they have at Panasonic catalog : it's a longer can body with a better ESR and a lower pitch between the legs : 5 mm, so better inductance. This two caps "sound" different, because despite they are both 1800/35V from the same serie, their spec are not the same even if close ! (for me the longer one with less diameter size gives often a better result in supply decoupling and reservoir cap)... but here the purpose is to test for the fun... both caps are good, rated at 105°c, automotive solidity compatble and relativly long life (the FR serie is better on this life side but not giving better subjective sounding results... choose your trade offs !)
Now is it mandatory for improvment, as said the caps are not the first factor in tweaking as pointed out. But I bet the FM or FC 2200 uF will give you a muddier sound... I will not bother with that, you have already among the best on your board ! Now it's no forbidden to play, it's a hobby and in a hobby, better result is not always the targett !
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Heck, just go get a couple of the expensive mundorf ag and be done with it if you have confidence in the design of the board. You will likely be pleased with how it sounds compared to the FC parts regardless of how the data sheets read.
Or spend many hours reading around and formulating your own idea based on threads like this!
Everything is a filter, even wire...
Or spend many hours reading around and formulating your own idea based on threads like this!
Everything is a filter, even wire...
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