And with all the background noise of the crowd you won't need HI FI. All the detail will get lost.
Every time I have broken something, while trying to provide a fix/solution; the real problem was that I had the wrong tool for the job.
Getting the correct tool, and using it as intended always works well!
Trying to make do with tools I have, and using those tools in ways they were not intended to be used most often results in things being broken, and me being frustrated, because I know better.
Getting the correct tool, and using it as intended always works well!
Trying to make do with tools I have, and using those tools in ways they were not intended to be used most often results in things being broken, and me being frustrated, because I know better.
At the moment I am looking for pro audio.
Owners said they really want sound quality first . Loudness second.
This will make their spot unique.
I'll be adding more vintage speakers for 80% of use.
And have 2 -4 pro audio powered speakers just for those dance events.
I really haven't heard any pro audio sound half decent.
One exception. Is xcaret in cancun mexico. There is a huge stadium and an illustrious performance. I believe it was all yamaha stuff . But need to check
Owners said they really want sound quality first . Loudness second.
This will make their spot unique.
I'll be adding more vintage speakers for 80% of use.
And have 2 -4 pro audio powered speakers just for those dance events.
I really haven't heard any pro audio sound half decent.
One exception. Is xcaret in cancun mexico. There is a huge stadium and an illustrious performance. I believe it was all yamaha stuff . But need to check
Attachments
If anyone knows of any pro audio that is a bit more refined.. as slose to home audio as possible.
Polk sda speakers
Advent 6003
Jvc sx-a3
Bowers and wilkins 604 s3
Polk sda speakers
Advent 6003
Jvc sx-a3
Bowers and wilkins 604 s3
I'm telling you, Peavey SP2 is +- 3 db 54-14000 hz. At 5 W Harmonic distortion is 25 db down from signal and at 50 W, 20 db down.
Plus, they make a grand piano CD sound like a piano, which is my acid test.
At 500 W rated power all bets are off, but your purchasers are not going to be using that. I use .125 to 1.5 watt in my living room.
Go listen to JVC and Yamaha too. My church has some *****y sounding Y's probably for voice PA only, but they are not all that way. All 3 PV, JVC, Yamaha, probably have bargain speakers for announcements in sports stadiums, and better sounding models for music. JVC has a consumer line where the frequency response doesn't even have +- db ratings. Don't buy those for good sound IMHO.
I paid ~$300 apiece for my used PV2-XT, in 2010, have listened 30-50 hours a week since without problems. They were 1998 build. Acoustics of the room is part of the art. My music room is shaped like Wein Philharmonic Hall, with speakers across the narrow end on poles. 11'H 14'W, 33" L, carpet on floor & stuffed furniture to kill standing waves. Speakers pointed to me on the couch on one side, or straightened on the poles to project at the kitchen 33' away when I'm in there eating.
Part of hearing demos, a warehouse with a 33' metal ceiling, walls 150' away, and concrete floor, is a poor music room. This is where Best Buy demos in my market. Circuit City had a heptagonal room with metal ceiling before they went bankrupt.
Plus, they make a grand piano CD sound like a piano, which is my acid test.
At 500 W rated power all bets are off, but your purchasers are not going to be using that. I use .125 to 1.5 watt in my living room.
Go listen to JVC and Yamaha too. My church has some *****y sounding Y's probably for voice PA only, but they are not all that way. All 3 PV, JVC, Yamaha, probably have bargain speakers for announcements in sports stadiums, and better sounding models for music. JVC has a consumer line where the frequency response doesn't even have +- db ratings. Don't buy those for good sound IMHO.
I paid ~$300 apiece for my used PV2-XT, in 2010, have listened 30-50 hours a week since without problems. They were 1998 build. Acoustics of the room is part of the art. My music room is shaped like Wein Philharmonic Hall, with speakers across the narrow end on poles. 11'H 14'W, 33" L, carpet on floor & stuffed furniture to kill standing waves. Speakers pointed to me on the couch on one side, or straightened on the poles to project at the kitchen 33' away when I'm in there eating.
Part of hearing demos, a warehouse with a 33' metal ceiling, walls 150' away, and concrete floor, is a poor music room. This is where Best Buy demos in my market. Circuit City had a heptagonal room with metal ceiling before they went bankrupt.
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Non-identical speakers should never be connected in series (impedance peaks will be at different frequencies leading to huge response errors).
Use star-quad wire to reduce HF loss.
Use star-quad wire to reduce HF loss.
I cannot conceive of domestic speakers coming even close to meeting the requirements for a dance floor. Even at modest dancing levels.
Those b&w units claim 90db/w at 1 meter. Consider
- the listening g distance is going to be a lot more than this. Probably more like 5 + meters on the dance floor.
- "not very loud" dance floors are going to be close to 100dB. (This is a good 10dB less than loud dance floor levels)
- you will have lots of sound absorbing people in there.
So
- the b&w would need 1 watt plus 10dB (to get to 100dB at 1 m) plus about 8dB (to get 100dB at 5+metres) plus ?dB for the sound absorbing dancers. This is going to be about 100Watts. This is flat out, and don't ask what it's excursion will be on bass notes.
- a typical PA speaker is going to be in the 98dB/W at one meter region. Or in other words it will happily do a quiet dance floor requiring much less than 100Watts. Probably a few 10's of Watts.
Is it possible to use domestic speakers in such an application? Of course it is.
If the application were for exclusive background music, then the approach is fine and you see domestic speakers in service in many restaurants.
My experience as an engineer says that if there is any chance of the user trying to use the system for a dance floor, then they will. Power handling, efficiency and robustness issues all point toward a very unhappy customer the first time this is used in such a way if speakers such as the b&w are used!
On the other hand, carefully built or selected (I prefer built) PA speakers can delight in both applications.
Those b&w units claim 90db/w at 1 meter. Consider
- the listening g distance is going to be a lot more than this. Probably more like 5 + meters on the dance floor.
- "not very loud" dance floors are going to be close to 100dB. (This is a good 10dB less than loud dance floor levels)
- you will have lots of sound absorbing people in there.
So
- the b&w would need 1 watt plus 10dB (to get to 100dB at 1 m) plus about 8dB (to get 100dB at 5+metres) plus ?dB for the sound absorbing dancers. This is going to be about 100Watts. This is flat out, and don't ask what it's excursion will be on bass notes.
- a typical PA speaker is going to be in the 98dB/W at one meter region. Or in other words it will happily do a quiet dance floor requiring much less than 100Watts. Probably a few 10's of Watts.
Is it possible to use domestic speakers in such an application? Of course it is.
If the application were for exclusive background music, then the approach is fine and you see domestic speakers in service in many restaurants.
My experience as an engineer says that if there is any chance of the user trying to use the system for a dance floor, then they will. Power handling, efficiency and robustness issues all point toward a very unhappy customer the first time this is used in such a way if speakers such as the b&w are used!
On the other hand, carefully built or selected (I prefer built) PA speakers can delight in both applications.
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Let me share some impressions about our experience in weddings:
My Brother and his 3 Dj's do wedding annimations every week from March till November (250-300 events Year) and we use Yamaha, Turbosound, Mackie and the like PA speakers for the main dinner / ball room. His favourite PA is self made cabinets with Coaxial Eigteensound drivers for the tops and Kilomax for the subs (2x Yamaha P7000 & DBX processor). For mixing and DJ console they use Pioneer and Denon stuff. We use also some el cheapo speakers for outdoor reception and the wedding cake ceremony. Here you need some power (300W min) because of the firework curtain muffling the song and the distance to the cake ceremony table. You know ... speakers behing the table on stands and Photos don't go well, unless you place them as monitors on the ground (more power needed)
For cocktail Music he likes Electro Jazz, Bossa, and Chill Downtempo Styles. Of course it depends on the Bride couple and friends taste...that's why he usually makes appointments with them before the Grand Date.
I recommend this pre-talk stuff to every DJ / Musician. It means we are pro's and we care about them. We choose here the songs for every moment and talk about our work. Believe me some appointments are a pain in the ****...You must emphatize The party is meant for their invited friends and not only for their own music tastes. So you must play different types of music on the ball and not only that obscure unknown artist they like. Leave this unknown artist for one of their moments. The last word of course is theirs. It's Their Party !! But, You are a Pro and can make some good suggestions. Be polite, and tell them that "You leaved me..." refrain isn't appropriate for that particular moment. It's a Wedding and not a Divorce for heaven's sake !! Believe me many couples choose songs just they like and don't even look at the lyrics.
Beware !! You aren't the artist on the stage.They are !! Their friends have come to party with them. You are there only to entertain and to help them conduct the party, unless you have been invited as a real performing artist and not as an animator or DJ. Depending on the contract conditions of course, never switch off the music before the bride couple leaves the place. They or the place paid You for beeing there. Abandonning the Booth for long time or Gin glasses staying arround You doensn't look good either. You are a Pro !! You don't drink while working !! Hope You understand my point of view...
Vienna classic music is often used for the ball opening. The opening Valse is mandatory, but one time we had a Heavy metal song opening, and sometimes art dance school students (usually non Catholic weddings). There is a trend now called "nano-ball" ... 2 or 3 songs at the time they enter the main room for dinner. Sunset in the garden while taking photos and drinking Gin is also a trend. It works best if you have a "beach or vintage like" bar outside and play near it. (Another Laptop Console and Speaker needed) Electro and Deep House works well. EDM leave it for the last ball.
Violin electric piano and saxophone house musicians play also a few songs at the reception. Sometimes during the dinner near the tables.
We are talking of weddings with 100 to 300 people. We are talking about all types / status people. Porsche Ferrari & Maserati people included. BMW & Mercedes people is normal..
You need speaker power for the ball so you must go for SR !!
You can spare the domestic 5000K speakers and Silver wiring for that art-deco Vintage launge / Bar inside.
Believe me, modern PA speakers when correctly installed and not over equalized or heavily compressed have good sound. Classic Music included. Speakers aren't designed for rave type music. Their protections are !!
Tip: Before equalising the room cut the treble a bit because it can help harshiness and power compression later on the ball, unless you want to send people home early with buzzing ears.
So:
You need a PA for the main room with lappy DJ console mixer CD player and 500w or more power per Speaker. (2x500w cabs for 100 people. Subs help a lot)
You need speakers for the garden /reception / sunset
Yes and You need cables unless You go the $$$$ wireless way. Use balanced cables where possible.
I've done many weddings running 100m balanced cable near the walls for the outside. Beware of the doors. I don't like playing diffent music on adjacent zones. It's a wedding not a fair !!
Usually our weddings last 10 to 12 hours. We consider a good first ball lasting 2 to 3 hours.
My Brother and his 3 Dj's do wedding annimations every week from March till November (250-300 events Year) and we use Yamaha, Turbosound, Mackie and the like PA speakers for the main dinner / ball room. His favourite PA is self made cabinets with Coaxial Eigteensound drivers for the tops and Kilomax for the subs (2x Yamaha P7000 & DBX processor). For mixing and DJ console they use Pioneer and Denon stuff. We use also some el cheapo speakers for outdoor reception and the wedding cake ceremony. Here you need some power (300W min) because of the firework curtain muffling the song and the distance to the cake ceremony table. You know ... speakers behing the table on stands and Photos don't go well, unless you place them as monitors on the ground (more power needed)
For cocktail Music he likes Electro Jazz, Bossa, and Chill Downtempo Styles. Of course it depends on the Bride couple and friends taste...that's why he usually makes appointments with them before the Grand Date.
I recommend this pre-talk stuff to every DJ / Musician. It means we are pro's and we care about them. We choose here the songs for every moment and talk about our work. Believe me some appointments are a pain in the ****...You must emphatize The party is meant for their invited friends and not only for their own music tastes. So you must play different types of music on the ball and not only that obscure unknown artist they like. Leave this unknown artist for one of their moments. The last word of course is theirs. It's Their Party !! But, You are a Pro and can make some good suggestions. Be polite, and tell them that "You leaved me..." refrain isn't appropriate for that particular moment. It's a Wedding and not a Divorce for heaven's sake !! Believe me many couples choose songs just they like and don't even look at the lyrics.
Beware !! You aren't the artist on the stage.They are !! Their friends have come to party with them. You are there only to entertain and to help them conduct the party, unless you have been invited as a real performing artist and not as an animator or DJ. Depending on the contract conditions of course, never switch off the music before the bride couple leaves the place. They or the place paid You for beeing there. Abandonning the Booth for long time or Gin glasses staying arround You doensn't look good either. You are a Pro !! You don't drink while working !! Hope You understand my point of view...
Vienna classic music is often used for the ball opening. The opening Valse is mandatory, but one time we had a Heavy metal song opening, and sometimes art dance school students (usually non Catholic weddings). There is a trend now called "nano-ball" ... 2 or 3 songs at the time they enter the main room for dinner. Sunset in the garden while taking photos and drinking Gin is also a trend. It works best if you have a "beach or vintage like" bar outside and play near it. (Another Laptop Console and Speaker needed) Electro and Deep House works well. EDM leave it for the last ball.
Violin electric piano and saxophone house musicians play also a few songs at the reception. Sometimes during the dinner near the tables.
We are talking of weddings with 100 to 300 people. We are talking about all types / status people. Porsche Ferrari & Maserati people included. BMW & Mercedes people is normal..
You need speaker power for the ball so you must go for SR !!
You can spare the domestic 5000K speakers and Silver wiring for that art-deco Vintage launge / Bar inside.
Believe me, modern PA speakers when correctly installed and not over equalized or heavily compressed have good sound. Classic Music included. Speakers aren't designed for rave type music. Their protections are !!
Tip: Before equalising the room cut the treble a bit because it can help harshiness and power compression later on the ball, unless you want to send people home early with buzzing ears.
So:
You need a PA for the main room with lappy DJ console mixer CD player and 500w or more power per Speaker. (2x500w cabs for 100 people. Subs help a lot)
You need speakers for the garden /reception / sunset
Yes and You need cables unless You go the $$$$ wireless way. Use balanced cables where possible.
I've done many weddings running 100m balanced cable near the walls for the outside. Beware of the doors. I don't like playing diffent music on adjacent zones. It's a wedding not a fair !!
Usually our weddings last 10 to 12 hours. We consider a good first ball lasting 2 to 3 hours.
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"I cannot conceive of domestic speakers coming even close to meeting the requirements for a dance floor. Even at modest dancing levels."
Klipsch Heresy + Subwoofer will get the job done, even for a dance club.
Use a MaxxBass if you can't use a sub.
Star-quad connected wire, 14ga or better, will keep the HF.
250 FT Feet True 12 GA Gauge AWG Speaker Wire Cable Car Home Audio 4 Conductor
Klipsch Heresy + Subwoofer will get the job done, even for a dance club.
Use a MaxxBass if you can't use a sub.
Star-quad connected wire, 14ga or better, will keep the HF.
250 FT Feet True 12 GA Gauge AWG Speaker Wire Cable Car Home Audio 4 Conductor
Very interesting. I was thinking of klipsch because of their efficiency.
It's not a rave ,concert venue.
Bunch of old rich people in rolce royces getting their marriages/finances finalized legally with fine wine and music in the back ground.
At the moment it's
vienna acoustics beethoven(powered by yamaha m60)
Bowers and wilkins dm604 s3, jvc sx-a3 in parallel (powered by yamaha mx1)
2 mb quart subs. Forgot the models. But hit low audible bass.
Only thing is 2-3 hour wedding dance . Will go with klipsch or some powered pro audio speakers mentioned here.
Very helpful discussion )
Need a pre amp with many preouts. At the moment have rotel rc-970bx has 2 pairs of good output pre outs. Might use tape rec out to feed other receivers for 2 other zones.
Will start another thread on preamp with xlr, and many pre outs.
Some thing like benchmark dac2 but cheaper
It's not a rave ,concert venue.
Bunch of old rich people in rolce royces getting their marriages/finances finalized legally with fine wine and music in the back ground.
At the moment it's
vienna acoustics beethoven(powered by yamaha m60)
Bowers and wilkins dm604 s3, jvc sx-a3 in parallel (powered by yamaha mx1)
2 mb quart subs. Forgot the models. But hit low audible bass.
Only thing is 2-3 hour wedding dance . Will go with klipsch or some powered pro audio speakers mentioned here.
Very helpful discussion )
Need a pre amp with many preouts. At the moment have rotel rc-970bx has 2 pairs of good output pre outs. Might use tape rec out to feed other receivers for 2 other zones.
Will start another thread on preamp with xlr, and many pre outs.
Some thing like benchmark dac2 but cheaper
Years ago I did a dance club with 14 Heresy and two Klipschorn bottoms.
Other than the main dance-floor with 100W above 100hz, 250W on the bottoms, all the other Heresy were driven by 50W NAD integrated amps (two per channel).
System ran 24/7 with the cleaning-crew and food-prep-people hammering the system. No failures in over five years, had to clean the air intakes on the DH-500 driving the bottoms every 3 months or so (from fur growing).
A very hi-fi sound that could bring you to your knees (when required).
Other than the main dance-floor with 100W above 100hz, 250W on the bottoms, all the other Heresy were driven by 50W NAD integrated amps (two per channel).
System ran 24/7 with the cleaning-crew and food-prep-people hammering the system. No failures in over five years, had to clean the air intakes on the DH-500 driving the bottoms every 3 months or so (from fur growing).
A very hi-fi sound that could bring you to your knees (when required).
Self-powered speakers are really good for this kind of thing. Many years ago, I did a whole high-school gym for a gymnastics event. used 4 pairs of Phillips motion feedback speakers, one pair stacked in each corner. After the event, we did crank it up some, and all the speakers survived. Sounded far better than I expected.
Oh dear my English is rusty.... When I said Bride couple I meant Married Couple.
My Apologies !!
Yes go for the Powered speakers. You just need one mic cable to link them all together.
Ok if they don't look good on the decoration, you can always conceal them behind a curtain or some kind of perforated cloth. Or paint them White !! Use a vase under the stand with some climbing plant around it.
There is one problem .. You have to have a mono switch somewhere or make a summing XLR cable, (Pin 2 from one channel and Pin 3 from the other channel to first xlr speaker input plug. Doesn't work with RCA to XLR this way because L & R signals are in phase), but for the most of the time no one will notice it isn't stereo.
My Apologies !!
Yes go for the Powered speakers. You just need one mic cable to link them all together.
Ok if they don't look good on the decoration, you can always conceal them behind a curtain or some kind of perforated cloth. Or paint them White !! Use a vase under the stand with some climbing plant around it.
There is one problem .. You have to have a mono switch somewhere or make a summing XLR cable, (Pin 2 from one channel and Pin 3 from the other channel to first xlr speaker input plug. Doesn't work with RCA to XLR this way because L & R signals are in phase), but for the most of the time no one will notice it isn't stereo.
On the use of Klipsch plus Subs. Agreed - this brings in a critical point. That cannot be stressed enough.
I have high efficiency (Beyma 10XC25) speakers in my office, as you do 🙂 They run off a 50WPC amplifier, as I had it laying around. Alone these would not come within a bulls roar of a dance floor. but they are 10".
With the 18" sub, which is in a large vented enclosure and actively crossed at 80Hz, you would probably be OK for a very modest group.
- The Coax Beymas each get 50W above 80Hz, actively crossed.
- The Sub gets 200W, below 80Hz again actively crossed.
The massive - and I cannot stress adequately - MASSIVE - thing here is the active crossover in the system.
- Running sub frequencies at high power into any conventional domestic speaker, and I do recognise that the more expensive Klipsch stuff falls in between domestic and something more industrial - is destined for a very sad outcome.
- Carving off sub frequencies and handing them to a properly designed sub gives you much more latitude for speaker selection, and forgiveness to high SPL.
- Furthermore, clipping the sub is quite hard to hear provided the tops are not clipping.
There is no doubt that hiding a few subs in the venue, and implementing a decent active crossover will make things much easier, cleaner and robust. If you stick to high efficiency speakers for the tops, you will be in a much better place.
On the topic of modern / good professional drivers:
- My more serious listening system uses venerable JBL2123 (10") bass-mids and Beyma TLP150H highs with pro audio subs.
- Both these drivers are > 100dB/w/m.
- Distortion at moderately loud (I didn't measure exactly) levels from 200Hz up was well under 1%, and mostly in the 0.3% region.
- This is a trick that eludes most domestic speakers.
- Ludicrously clean and dynamic. But you pay.
I have high efficiency (Beyma 10XC25) speakers in my office, as you do 🙂 They run off a 50WPC amplifier, as I had it laying around. Alone these would not come within a bulls roar of a dance floor. but they are 10".
With the 18" sub, which is in a large vented enclosure and actively crossed at 80Hz, you would probably be OK for a very modest group.
- The Coax Beymas each get 50W above 80Hz, actively crossed.
- The Sub gets 200W, below 80Hz again actively crossed.
The massive - and I cannot stress adequately - MASSIVE - thing here is the active crossover in the system.
- Running sub frequencies at high power into any conventional domestic speaker, and I do recognise that the more expensive Klipsch stuff falls in between domestic and something more industrial - is destined for a very sad outcome.
- Carving off sub frequencies and handing them to a properly designed sub gives you much more latitude for speaker selection, and forgiveness to high SPL.
- Furthermore, clipping the sub is quite hard to hear provided the tops are not clipping.
There is no doubt that hiding a few subs in the venue, and implementing a decent active crossover will make things much easier, cleaner and robust. If you stick to high efficiency speakers for the tops, you will be in a much better place.
On the topic of modern / good professional drivers:
- My more serious listening system uses venerable JBL2123 (10") bass-mids and Beyma TLP150H highs with pro audio subs.
- Both these drivers are > 100dB/w/m.
- Distortion at moderately loud (I didn't measure exactly) levels from 200Hz up was well under 1%, and mostly in the 0.3% region.
- This is a trick that eludes most domestic speakers.
- Ludicrously clean and dynamic. But you pay.
If there's any dancing to be done, you want to be able to hit 110dB peaks on the dancefloor IMO. Even if it's only one client every two months.
I'd go for something smallish like a few 8" PA speakers and then add the subwoofers. The latest active PA speakers sound good. Not the last word in HiFi, perhaps, but they'll go much louder, cleaner, and have enough built-in limiting to be basically indestructable from signal inputs.
That said, if the owner is insisting on HiFi-type gear, I'd go for some Behringer B2031s. Active or passive, whichever works better for you. The active ones have limiters, but the passive ones can be driven from your amplifier. Both sound good, and are exceptional for the price.
IMO, audition some Yamaha DXR8 and some Behringer B2031A and see what's what. The Yamahas will need subs to cover 100Hz down, while you might get away without a sub for the Behringers, depending on how loud it needs to be.
Chris
I'd go for something smallish like a few 8" PA speakers and then add the subwoofers. The latest active PA speakers sound good. Not the last word in HiFi, perhaps, but they'll go much louder, cleaner, and have enough built-in limiting to be basically indestructable from signal inputs.
That said, if the owner is insisting on HiFi-type gear, I'd go for some Behringer B2031s. Active or passive, whichever works better for you. The active ones have limiters, but the passive ones can be driven from your amplifier. Both sound good, and are exceptional for the price.
IMO, audition some Yamaha DXR8 and some Behringer B2031A and see what's what. The Yamahas will need subs to cover 100Hz down, while you might get away without a sub for the Behringers, depending on how loud it needs to be.
Chris
Some good quality PA 8" actives would be a good choice for quality, IMO.
In terms of a limiter, I've heard (and seen done) you can simply use a 60 W incandescent light bulb in series with the speaker.
JBL EON ONE?
In terms of a limiter, I've heard (and seen done) you can simply use a 60 W incandescent light bulb in series with the speaker.
JBL EON ONE?
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I have seen references to using light bulbs as limiters to reduce damage during overload.
I'm pretty sure they were lower voltage light bulbs. Try 24Vdc bulbs from trucks, or three 12Vdc in series for a higher power speaker/amp.
12V 21W indicator bulb has a hot resistance of ~6r9 and thus the cold resistance will be ~0r6
24V 21W ~14r hot and ~1r2 cold.
I'm pretty sure they were lower voltage light bulbs. Try 24Vdc bulbs from trucks, or three 12Vdc in series for a higher power speaker/amp.
12V 21W indicator bulb has a hot resistance of ~6r9 and thus the cold resistance will be ~0r6
24V 21W ~14r hot and ~1r2 cold.
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