You must be joking the compression and bandwidth limitations on U tube stop us hearing the difference if it did not there would be no point in hi quality audio at all.
However we are digressing I enjoy discussion on provable argument with supporting facts. The magic of great sound the emotional link makes it worth while and the fact that you have contributed to this makes it even more so.
In the seventies we used to think that passive components did not make a difference to the sound how wrong we were. a good design has synergy this means that all things works together and that is where Julian was coming from
The design has to have a harmony
Trev
I agree with that of course. YouTube video sound is low-fi for sure. I would never advocate judging performance this way. Even so, I can still recognise some of the Naim in the sound in that particular video. Ironically, not so much in a Statement video at some HIFI show that I watched.
I may just be a freak. 😀
Same. Hey you've got experience going way back. That's great. I just peeked at your profile; I guess you may have something to say about big power supplies too. 😉
I can understand if you don't know. Beside ears (fixed variable), kind of experience we need is very hands on and technical, until we can hear sound like we see colours.
If in real life I have heard many systems failed to display the beauties of Eva Cassidy, and then from YouTube one system can do it, what kind of conclusion is feasible? Can the system do it again when listened to directly? Or may be it can do it only thru crappy reproduction only?
I was not one of them. I didn't make conclusion like them. With an enquiry open mind and a little experiment the right conclusion can be had.
Yes, the statement video is a mess. The listening skill should cover the ability to judge if there's no useful conclusion can be made. Anyhow, the direct listening of the combo might show something unfavourable still , tho not as catastrophic as the video, because not all amps can work well with all speaker and music types.
Actually, the hardest part of listening like that is to judge which part of the sound is due to the speaker. This is important because speaker is the biggest determinant factor not the amp! So we have to be familiar also with sounds related to speaker issues.
Judging from YouTube, I always choose music recording that I'm very familiar with. But I can't choose the speaker! (I believe in the Harberth, not LS3/A as promoted by Nigel I think)
It's good to talk about the very early ones. I had a NAC 32 from the earlier period. A guy had a very early NAP160 that someone had messed about with. He told me a terrible story of how he had been ripped off. Any attempt to pair his NAP160 or my NAC32( not 32.5 ) had failed. I think the 32 owed me £150, I suspect he got it for nothing. The two together worked and I think the nicer Naim sound I ever heard except not quite the dynamics of even a Nait 2 ( same circuit ).
My feeling is this. The NAP160 was supertuned for the Quad ESL57. All and any Naim amplifier changes considerably with the 57's, a panorama opens. My eyes tell me the correction network before the output stage do this job of supertuning. I further suspect Julian did not fully understand this and if you like was the water into wine circuit in his mind. Some statements of JLH suggest he understood this as he gives unusual insights when reactive loads which is code for Qual ESL.
To make it very clear. Naim amplifiers become more refined and assured as they grew in price. It is mostly if not 100% the power supply. It is most weird knowing this and hearing that. If a collour TV it would have more contrast and black would be blacker. The black illussion is very similar for either, in music we seldom talk about it. Hiss and the last remnant of digital is a part of it.
If you play with bandwidth it will show you how weird bandwidth limiting can be. It greatly changes the sound whilst statistics say it's minimal. For example a 35 kHz filter on a piano makes it sound boring and seems to kill the midband. Equally too much makes me want to watch TV instead. Each amplifier and each system has it's right level and the listener also. Even if you only hear 12 kHz as a tone the wave shape can be heard. Ironically some older people are more gifted at hearing this, listened longer and more understanding of music perhaps. I did a bit of work on this and the speed of a wave and the ability to hear a tone are not the whole story and not quite the same thing. As I said before a tone might be a photo and music is a movie.
My feeling is this. The NAP160 was supertuned for the Quad ESL57. All and any Naim amplifier changes considerably with the 57's, a panorama opens. My eyes tell me the correction network before the output stage do this job of supertuning. I further suspect Julian did not fully understand this and if you like was the water into wine circuit in his mind. Some statements of JLH suggest he understood this as he gives unusual insights when reactive loads which is code for Qual ESL.
To make it very clear. Naim amplifiers become more refined and assured as they grew in price. It is mostly if not 100% the power supply. It is most weird knowing this and hearing that. If a collour TV it would have more contrast and black would be blacker. The black illussion is very similar for either, in music we seldom talk about it. Hiss and the last remnant of digital is a part of it.
If you play with bandwidth it will show you how weird bandwidth limiting can be. It greatly changes the sound whilst statistics say it's minimal. For example a 35 kHz filter on a piano makes it sound boring and seems to kill the midband. Equally too much makes me want to watch TV instead. Each amplifier and each system has it's right level and the listener also. Even if you only hear 12 kHz as a tone the wave shape can be heard. Ironically some older people are more gifted at hearing this, listened longer and more understanding of music perhaps. I did a bit of work on this and the speed of a wave and the ability to hear a tone are not the whole story and not quite the same thing. As I said before a tone might be a photo and music is a movie.
BTW. Whilst I do have " small " doubts about the youTube thoughts, I love the willingness to understand. I listen to a lot of youTube and made a hi fi that can do it. It isn't the best, it's better than waiting forever to find an LP.
Here is typical Naim music of the period. My copy was from Sunshine Records Oxford, this is close enough to know. They had a TD124! It's the one now in Hi Fi World's photo's of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Hr9K4uqEk
Here is an example of something I love that I doubt I will ever find. This version that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi96gfl_Dog
Here is typical Naim music of the period. My copy was from Sunshine Records Oxford, this is close enough to know. They had a TD124! It's the one now in Hi Fi World's photo's of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Hr9K4uqEk
Here is an example of something I love that I doubt I will ever find. This version that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi96gfl_Dog
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About tones. My speakers are dangerously loud and easy to listen to when loud. If I play pure tones they never seem loud ( the meter says differently ). When the music comes it is very different. Being baffles they seem to exagerate this difference. All part of the tones are photo's and music is moving pictures I feel.
I looked for a circuit and didnt find any. Appeared that you observed a pic 🙂 It was a NAP110 and according to Lohk it was the early transistor from '70s. Lohk showed NAP250 with SM3282 and according to him it is an equivalent of BUV20. I checked it is 8 MHz.
So in '70 JV used a very fast transistor (10 M) but when there are faster ones he didnt use them, even choosed a slower one (8 M). I mentioned that a transistor that has Naim sound characteristics is Hitachi C1061. I checked this is 5 MHz but of course JV wanted high current capability. I think this is not coincidental. Speed affects the behaviour of rolloff and phase. I like fast transistor but not too fast.
You are right. The consequence is noone will be able to copy the Naim sound unless they have JV ears and understanding that there are parts of sound that they can copy, not all because there are unlimited combinations.
But I think choice of transistor (output and vas) is the first to clone.
Traderbam mentioned about the snappy midrange of Naim. This I believe in part is due to tantalum. When I was young I love to use tantalum because of this snappy character Give the impression of live music. MKP sounded much less defined but I happened to prefer it.
I loved styroflex too. The highs become so airy like in the Naim. Im still using it in every chances even tho it may sound a bit unnatural.
yes big power supplies within reason the bigger the better but its not all in one direction i can remember in 1979 learning a big lesson with power supplies i designed and build a power amplifier in which the front diff pair and vas were powered seperate from the drivers and output devices it also had a switch which coupled the front end and vas to the main supply The result was amazing in seperate drive mode the amplifier was faster the bass had more authority it really was a revelation this was just before the market went crazy with dual left right power supplies
I did discuss this with a no of well known designers of electronic amplifiers who in the course of time came out with revised front ends dealing with the result in new and interesting ways some of the guys are still alive some dead and like me some have in effect disapeared
Trev
I did discuss this with a no of well known designers of electronic amplifiers who in the course of time came out with revised front ends dealing with the result in new and interesting ways some of the guys are still alive some dead and like me some have in effect disapeared
Trev
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Indeed, there is an interaction between the front end and the Class AB currents flowing through the output of the power stage which has a key impact on the sound. This has been exploited as a method for 'voicing' amplifiers in the past. In other words, you can treat it as a problem to be removed by using separate front-end supplies, or you can use it as part of the 'flavour' that your are trying to achieve because it adds some complexity to the harmonic structure, with more influence on 2nd harmonic.
do you see some clues here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_cell
do you see some clues here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_cell
The upload was definitely done by someone that knows how to properly use his equipment. The second upload I would bet is from an LP rip, it is in fact very nice. Whether it was played on a Niam I truly cannot tell
even if it jumped out in broad daylight and bit me in the b@lls.Hi Garreth,
I do not see much relevance in your link regarding the Gilbert cell. Power the "front end" separately is something some of us done for years and simply means that the "output" cannot modulate the power supply of the "front end".
Hugh has used this for a long time just by adding the series diodes in the power lines to reduce the powerline modulation, but powering from a separate power supply, that has an even higher voltage definitely has audible benefits.
It is difficult to simulate such an effect because most simulators have constant voltage infinite current supplies thus one has to create an equivalent circuit to see the reduction in cross modulation as well as harmonic related artifacts.
If I recall from your previous posts you may be employing this effect in the Niam clone. However this could cause drastic improvements which may deviate a lot from the "Niam Sound".
I do not see much relevance in your link regarding the Gilbert cell. Power the "front end" separately is something some of us done for years and simply means that the "output" cannot modulate the power supply of the "front end".
Hugh has used this for a long time just by adding the series diodes in the power lines to reduce the powerline modulation, but powering from a separate power supply, that has an even higher voltage definitely has audible benefits.
It is difficult to simulate such an effect because most simulators have constant voltage infinite current supplies thus one has to create an equivalent circuit to see the reduction in cross modulation as well as harmonic related artifacts.
If I recall from your previous posts you may be employing this effect in the Niam clone. However this could cause drastic improvements which may deviate a lot from the "Niam Sound".
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think about it. If your power supply to the front end LTP is modulated by the signal your LTP will 'mix' it with the signal like a crude Gilbert cell and produce IM products that colour the sound.
I am decoupling the front-end with an RC filter. Given that there are Naim amplifiers with and without regulated supplies there is a Naim sound for all variations 😎
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Polystyrene are harder to source and provide less flexibility for the pcb layout - both are relatively minor reasons but ceramic NP0/C0G are superb capacitors. It's possible that they give something up to the polystyrene in some applications, but it's not clear to me what that would be. Modern NP0/C0G caps are some of the best you can buy, as good or better than many film caps in my opinion. I use them without a 2nd thought in audio applications. In a listening test I did last year I found using a ceramic NP0/COG for Cdom sounded better subjectively than a Silver Mica cap in the same position.
It's pretty clear that the Naim choice is to build decent PSRR into the front end and to keep the ground traces free of cap charging currents by not having any local decoupling. Deviating from this might cause drastic improvements... or it might not.
I've tried regulating the supply for the front end, for the o/p stage, for the whole amp, along with mulitudes of decoupling schemes. They all sound different and not neccessarily better then the Naim method. It's all down to implementation and which sound characteristics you value most.
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