If all you want to do is throw rhetorical questions around and play psuedo intellectual, why participate yourself?
Pot meet kettle: don't pretend that you own the thread and can *demand* answers and then suggest disingenuity of others when you don't get your answer. See: petulant.
Edit to add: there's a lot of very good stuff and plenty of stimulating discussion here (most of it having nothing to do with audio). Why are you here?
Pot meet kettle: don't pretend that you own the thread and can *demand* answers and then suggest disingenuity of others when you don't get your answer. See: petulant.
Edit to add: there's a lot of very good stuff and plenty of stimulating discussion here (most of it having nothing to do with audio). Why are you here?
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Derf, thanks for you input.
There was no demand made, only perceived on your part.
I guess you feel as if you are self conscious naked in the locker room?
IF anyone would actually commit themselves, other than saying that they never heard anything much make any sonic difference other than maybe orders of magnitude variations in parameters, maybe the conversation might move to the specifics.
For example, IF "jitter" caused noticeable differences in the perceived sound (and it did/does) how does that manifest in the usual measured parameters?? I've seen explanations of why it has an effect, but I can't say I have seen the measured differences. Anyone? (and I don't mean the differences in jitter, I refer to the output sound).
To go back in time, many people who were just as "scientific" as today, insisted that merely having and amp with "0.001%" distortion made that amp totally "transparent". Of course that turned out to not be entirely correct... for various reasons, many of which now have technical "fixes". There were a multitude of other positions taken that were similar that were similar, but over time have yielded to eventual "scientific" onion peeling, and are now well accepted. And, then the response now comes out like "...of course, because of yadd and yedda, it is obvious that such and such is whatever..." but it wasn't obvious at all at one time.
Oh yeah the CD pressing jitter issue.
Probably before your interest in the field.
Same deal.
_-_-bear
There was no demand made, only perceived on your part.
I guess you feel as if you are self conscious naked in the locker room?
IF anyone would actually commit themselves, other than saying that they never heard anything much make any sonic difference other than maybe orders of magnitude variations in parameters, maybe the conversation might move to the specifics.
For example, IF "jitter" caused noticeable differences in the perceived sound (and it did/does) how does that manifest in the usual measured parameters?? I've seen explanations of why it has an effect, but I can't say I have seen the measured differences. Anyone? (and I don't mean the differences in jitter, I refer to the output sound).
To go back in time, many people who were just as "scientific" as today, insisted that merely having and amp with "0.001%" distortion made that amp totally "transparent". Of course that turned out to not be entirely correct... for various reasons, many of which now have technical "fixes". There were a multitude of other positions taken that were similar that were similar, but over time have yielded to eventual "scientific" onion peeling, and are now well accepted. And, then the response now comes out like "...of course, because of yadd and yedda, it is obvious that such and such is whatever..." but it wasn't obvious at all at one time.
Oh yeah the CD pressing jitter issue.
Probably before your interest in the field.
Same deal.
_-_-bear
I did, what's the problem, not what you wanted to hear? And furthermore JC tell Jack and Max you too, LIGO is going on line in a few months for its next science run I'm an insider now I could get your entropy reversing devices tested for real. Remove the low frequency noise without removing the signal I can almost guarantee a share of a Nobel prize.
No, I feel perfectly comfortable talking here, and it seems only a few people desire to devalue the opinions of people with "lesser gear". And, as I wrote before, I'm utterly unapologetic about my system. 
I know there's a lot that can be done, but that's in the domain of DSP (almost exclusively, lower gain amps and a higher performing DAC would be fun, but not really necessary in comparison with dB's of change in xover/EQ).
If nothing else, when George does a days' worth of tests for us all to learn something, it's worth the cost of subscription.
As to the rest of your post: strawman much? And the jitter issue has been studied plenty, go have a read on google scholar to get the abstract (as misleading as they're wont to be).
I know there's a lot that can be done, but that's in the domain of DSP (almost exclusively, lower gain amps and a higher performing DAC would be fun, but not really necessary in comparison with dB's of change in xover/EQ).If nothing else, when George does a days' worth of tests for us all to learn something, it's worth the cost of subscription.
As to the rest of your post: strawman much? And the jitter issue has been studied plenty, go have a read on google scholar to get the abstract (as misleading as they're wont to be).
If you are trying to get to specifics, instead of trying to get there by asking about confounding, why not try a more direct route: Does anyone here know how clock jitter in a digital system (that would be enough to have an effect on stereo imaging) would appear if one channel of the system were to be tested with a single tone distortion analyzer? Would you be able to see it that way, and if so, how would it look?
Something like that, if that's what you want to know. I'm still not quite clear on what you are trying to find out.
Pretty obvious.
Either things make a difference or they don't.
So what does, and what doesn't.
If you have never heard any differences that are not simply due to gross problems or
similar, then you haven't. Don't know why Scott Wurcer keeps answering... there are likely thousands here reading... Or Derf, find your input has been noted.
Either things make a difference or they don't.
So what does, and what doesn't.
If you have never heard any differences that are not simply due to gross problems or
similar, then you haven't. Don't know why Scott Wurcer keeps answering... there are likely thousands here reading... Or Derf, find your input has been noted.
Bear I don't mind you at all, in fact if you're ever headed to WA, let me know. Maybe we could get super sacrilegious and document ourselves not DBTing as we change things in my stereo. Sorry I don't have a comparison for SPDIF cables.
Mark, is that the best way to check for jitter? I don't know, maybe that's why Bear is also asking.
Mark, is that the best way to check for jitter? I don't know, maybe that's why Bear is also asking.
There are instruments specifically for that purpose. And there are clock "jitter cleaner" ICs available now to regenerate clock timing and remove jitter. As to what jitter sounds like, my understanding it that it depends a lot on the specific nature of the particular jitter. Another question might be how much jitter does it take to be audible. Some people think numbers in the low picosecond range should be low enough to be inaudible. Others have said that jitter distortion should be limited to less than 1/4 of the total THD and noise of the analog part of a system.
Some interesting discussion at Cranesong:
jitter_1
Most of the more interesting info is on page 2 of the jitter section.
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Very sorry if I gave the discussion a dark turn. But, really, trying to do the Socratic method of posing questions of the poor fumbling students to guide them toward wisdom doesn't really go over very well. If there's a point, make it, don't try to make springboards to take off from.
In answer to the last question: yes, I've heard big differences like "wow, this sounds really good today" and also "I'm not getting into this today, the system sounds kind of contrived". When nothing at all changed, except time and continual changing of my attitude and state of mind. Which is why no one's going to jump out and make declarations, because we aren't constant non-changing sensors and are wise enough to recognize the fallibility of perceptions and hesitant to declare absolutes without the work needed for them to really mean much.
In answer to the last question: yes, I've heard big differences like "wow, this sounds really good today" and also "I'm not getting into this today, the system sounds kind of contrived". When nothing at all changed, except time and continual changing of my attitude and state of mind. Which is why no one's going to jump out and make declarations, because we aren't constant non-changing sensors and are wise enough to recognize the fallibility of perceptions and hesitant to declare absolutes without the work needed for them to really mean much.
Gee do you think the only thing that happens on power lines is just voltage variations?
Do you have more detail about what changes in street power have what effect on your sound system?
No. But I haven't really gotten a good response on how much of that ends up on the binding posts.
(Of course, that will depend on a number of variables). Got any good data? I'm honestly ignorant, so I have to go off of using an IEC mains filter (minimize incursion) and an amplifier with decent PSRR. I just don't see a lot of thd/imd plots with PSU hash in them.
Changes can include a 'haze' over the sound, or a change of the 'character' of the system.
Try putting your phone on charge by plugging the PS into the power board that supplies your system.
The 'power feeds' mention is about charging my old Android phone as a music player.
I/we find that I can dictate the sound of the player according to the filter that I apply to the USB charging cable, and 5 seconds of charging is sufficient to effect the sticky change.
Something really interesting is going on.
Dan.
Try putting your phone on charge by plugging the PS into the power board that supplies your system.
The 'power feeds' mention is about charging my old Android phone as a music player.
I/we find that I can dictate the sound of the player according to the filter that I apply to the USB charging cable, and 5 seconds of charging is sufficient to effect the sticky change.
Something really interesting is going on.
Dan.
Lots of junk on the power supply lines in our modern world of zillions of SMPS's plugged into the electrical grid. Like DAC jitter and recitfier diode noise; it's not super obvious untill you hear it gone.
I ran an APC UPS at T.H.E. Show. It cleaned up the power very well and kept my mind at ease in case someone kicked the power extension cord: I didn't have to worry about my Denon quartz automatic TT going crazy.
I ran an APC UPS at T.H.E. Show. It cleaned up the power very well and kept my mind at ease in case someone kicked the power extension cord: I didn't have to worry about my Denon quartz automatic TT going crazy.
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Check the etymology: Latin “Symposium” from the Greek “sympósion” meaning “drink together” (those people knew how to give their life a meaning)
Bear
I’ve changed USB cables a few times and I plug / unplug them quite frequently in my audio system.
I haven’t noticed any change in the audio content. Nothing to report.
Say I did had noticed a change.
Should I report it and initiate an endless stream of posts?
Or should I sit my butt on the workshop stool and do a proper test?
Last time I did such a thing (cable testing), I worked on it for one and a half week (I log it down to check if my neurotic behavior worsens with time (it does): 28h of testing, 32h data check and analysis)
What’s that feeling? I don’t understand.
I assume you mean being naked in a locker room alone ( Jacco kept far far away)
From my experience of using various portable devices as music players in my system, I can say that if the operation of the device is overstressed in that role, a lot of things change.
Consider using each portable device waay down it’s max internal data traffic capabilities. A lot of processes work in the back concurrently with the music files transfer.
Please make sure that the device is working much below it’s limits before start checking for external influences. You may be led astray if you don’t.
George
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