Hi, what is the better driver for a small TL box for my bedroom? The cab I had in mind is an off the shelf mini solid wood TL box probably for the Fostex 103 (but I have tried that driver already and didn't like it too much).
Cab size is around 160 x 310 x 205mm (WxHxD)
The Scanspeak 8414 or the Seas Prestige FU10RB is also possible choice.
TIA.
Cab size is around 160 x 310 x 205mm (WxHxD)
The Scanspeak 8414 or the Seas Prestige FU10RB is also possible choice.
TIA.
If you recall, I had an Alpair 7 maop (the cab is direct from Markaudio). It was fairly good but I didn't like the midrange it produce even after extended burning in time. I didn't really female vocal that the alpair produce so I sold it. I have a Fostex FF85 used as a tweeter but it does not unseat my main speaker Kef LS50. After playing with a number of fullrange from Jordan to Visaton to Markaudio, I'll take a compromise and just accept a good wideband driver with good midrange.
BTW, there is a comparative test done by XRK971 and people choose the Scanspeak 8424 over the Alpair 7.3, so I am leaning toward that direction. I am hoping the ML box will extend the bass a touch more.
You can't really put a whole lot into those tests, you aren't really comparing the drivers.
The 10F is good but not spectacular… if you didn't like the A7 MOAP your preferences are quite different than those around here, it is one of the best drivers i have ever heard.
Maybe it was the enclosure?
dave
Think LS50 is serious speaker as reference point so that you lean towards 10F/8424 direction guided by XRK971 comparison threads think sounds bit logic based own participation into those comparison threads and the data shared over there. Own a pair 10F/8424 myself and except bit high cost have only good experience that driver and its quality, that be if you benchmark it real world with own measurements it won't disappoint and show excellent data including sound performance seems follow up, although subjective sound performance can be different from person to person so take that with a grant of salt. So based data agree you lean for 10F/8424 or 10/8414 that has a bit lower bass extension, other than that there is B80 and the two Dayton's RS100P-4 or RS100-4 that did not sound bad in comparison threads and they have even lower bass extension than 10F's and B80. Alpairs seems have lowest bass extension in class but haven't seen any being especially smooth when measured as to compare a LS50, and that's probably why you didn't like it even it was top model.
Below is into REW traced response from manufactures data sheet overlay for FF85WK, B80, 10F/8424, 10F/8414 and beside is Dayton plot's for paper and alu version, all should have about same X Y scaled axis.
Below is into REW traced response from manufactures data sheet overlay for FF85WK, B80, 10F/8424, 10F/8414 and beside is Dayton plot's for paper and alu version, all should have about same X Y scaled axis.
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We have shared around the 10Fs we have here and it is pretty much universal opinion of everyone that it doesn't keep up with to FF85wKen, Alpair 7.3eN, A7 MOAP, A5.2eN, A6PeN and quite a few more.
I guess your milage varies.
I have more than once posted my serious objections to XRK's tests.
dave
I guess your milage varies.
I have more than once posted my serious objections to XRK's tests.
dave
Brytt,
You keep posted those graphes as if they prove something -- a rookie mistake. This is where the difference between good & great happens. The big difference between the drivers mentioned in my post just above are in the highlighted area where the graphs show nothing.
This is also below the level of information captured by X's tests.
dave
You keep posted those graphes as if they prove something -- a rookie mistake. This is where the difference between good & great happens. The big difference between the drivers mentioned in my post just above are in the highlighted area where the graphs show nothing.
This is also below the level of information captured by X's tests.
dave
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Brytt,
You keep posted those graphes as if they prove something -- a rookie mistake. This is where the difference between good & great happens. The big difference between the drivers mentioned in my post just above are in the highlighted area where the graphs show nothing.
This is also below the level of information captured by X's tests.
dave
Right i do because you keep claim superior sound performance pointing to nothing real prove but what seems your salesman personal subjective tests every time your preferred drivers is run over by other real world better data.
1. How smart is it push your preferred drivers in this thread when ChuckT tell you he have LS50 reference, he also tell FF85 is not good enough and even after extended burning in time he have sold top model A7 MAOP, will that give future satisfied customer.
2. Rookie mistake WOW - How can you be so many years in sector not understand speakers is minimum phase devices and response deviations from pure flat especially the high Q ones have so big influence on amplitude and timing distortion that output from so unsmooth family of drivers can never be true to their input. Peaks gives too hot perceived amplitude and advance timing compared input signal, dips gives too weak perceived amplitude and timing lag compared input signal, the higher Q is for peak and dips the worse and because timing is distorted compared original input signal waterfall will look a awfully mess and so will sound performance reflect that waterfall mess.
3. You point to audio tracks dynamic range material far down low level should be parameter your preferred family of drivers perform better, well have you looked a VU meter upstream how less it often swings in reality and what we actually first hear is what happens right at top and that means for your preferred family of drivers is distorted output verse input stream, so get that right first before any talk of low level correctness can be discussed.
4. FF85wKen, Alpair 7.3eN, A7 MOAP, A5.2eN, A6PeN are probably very good diy full rangers but think you very wrong begin claim they can compete with LS50 class of compromises into be true to input signal. Can tell you personal did think A10.2 and A7.3 sounded interesting and pleasing but at same must say they sound far from most other speakers performance no matter level of cost and precision and think that is strange.
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Brytt,
You keep posted those graphes as if they prove something -- a rookie mistake. This is where the difference between good & great happens. The big difference between the drivers mentioned in my post just above are in the highlighted area where the graphs show nothing.
This is also below the level of information captured by X's tests.
dave
Dave,
In my opinion, you are the one that should learn a thing or two about the graphs. As long as you stop at putting speakers in a box and hope for the best you will never learn what that difference between good and great really is.
The graphs could tell you, you just haven't learned to look past the standard representations yet. Stop calling someone a rookie because he follows a different path. And stop bashing speakers if you don't know how to use them in the right way.
The most important thing we hear is the frequency response. It's smoothness is important and allows it to sound good with all genres of music. Ripples in the response or in the case of the FF85WK lead to transient effects in the time domain like ringing. I have argued that drivers with sharp peaks in the HF allow the selective amplification of what we perceive as detail. The problem is, this detail is enhanced and not present in the source material. But for some people who have a love for extra "detail" in their music, it sounds like it has the ability to play "low level detail".
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ced-selective-amplification-resa-aka-ddr.html
A good driver with smooth flat response by contrast will sound "dull and lifeless". But the truth is, dull and lifeless is indeed accurate to the original source.
It's like EQ preferences - we can do it with slider knobs or we can get drivers with built in EQ via peaks and dips.
If you are wondering whether or not the 10F/8424 can sound great - I have no doubt that it's capable of HiFi sound when used in the right speaker. It won't produce deep bass like some of the deeper Xmax drivers. But in a FAST with a xo above 300Hz or so - not too many drivers can touch it for musical accuracy. You won't regret getting it.
Listen to my latest sound clip where I am testing a new amp. Here it is using a transient perfect XO with an RS225-8. Same arrangement as the blind tests for the FF85WKeN vs pristine.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...imate-fidelity-amplifier-783.html#post4762368
The nice bass is via the RS225 and the nice mids and highs via the 10F. They work well together.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ced-selective-amplification-resa-aka-ddr.html
A good driver with smooth flat response by contrast will sound "dull and lifeless". But the truth is, dull and lifeless is indeed accurate to the original source.
It's like EQ preferences - we can do it with slider knobs or we can get drivers with built in EQ via peaks and dips.
If you are wondering whether or not the 10F/8424 can sound great - I have no doubt that it's capable of HiFi sound when used in the right speaker. It won't produce deep bass like some of the deeper Xmax drivers. But in a FAST with a xo above 300Hz or so - not too many drivers can touch it for musical accuracy. You won't regret getting it.
Listen to my latest sound clip where I am testing a new amp. Here it is using a transient perfect XO with an RS225-8. Same arrangement as the blind tests for the FF85WKeN vs pristine.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...imate-fidelity-amplifier-783.html#post4762368
The nice bass is via the RS225 and the nice mids and highs via the 10F. They work well together.
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Get me a sketch of the existing box and I will see what I can do about a TL for the 10F. Probably a folded and tapered TL will get you to about 75Hz with the 10F.
Yes, I do take into account of possible short coming of those test and do not take them as absolute reference. Nevertheless, I do believe collective preference do have some value.
I do believe we have difference preference. But note that I got the Alpair moap from 2nd hand (previous owner brought it direct from Mark Audio and he let go of it for a reason). So at least here there is at least two who opt for a different speaker. The Alpair is actually pretty good for the price I got for it, its just that the Alpair does not match my taste.
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A predictable response.
Did i say any different? But speakers are complex and there is more to it than that. A few: off-axis response, the relation of off-axis response to on-axis response, colourations not due to FR, and the ability to reproduce (not bury) low level detail (DDR).
The area that i highlighted is where the big difference between the 10F and the drivers i mentioned.
Speakers in general are heavily compromised devices. It is totally possible to have speakers with different compromises that sound quite different from one another but that are equally valid in terms of there design.
That is why we have so many different kinds of speakers with an equally diverse set of people who enjoy them. In the end you have to listen and choose a speaker (and system) that you enjoy and connects you to the emotion of the music.
dave
Did i say any different? But speakers are complex and there is more to it than that. A few: off-axis response, the relation of off-axis response to on-axis response, colourations not due to FR, and the ability to reproduce (not bury) low level detail (DDR).
The area that i highlighted is where the big difference between the 10F and the drivers i mentioned.
Speakers in general are heavily compromised devices. It is totally possible to have speakers with different compromises that sound quite different from one another but that are equally valid in terms of there design.
That is why we have so many different kinds of speakers with an equally diverse set of people who enjoy them. In the end you have to listen and choose a speaker (and system) that you enjoy and connects you to the emotion of the music.
dave
Thanks a lot.
I don't have a sketch since its a pre-made TL box. But it looks like this.
Cab size is around 160 x 310 x 205mm (WxHxD)
Do you think the 8414 or the Vifa NE123W might be a better choice. The Vifa NE123W goes lower with resonance fz at 61hz.
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Do you have a scale drawing, or just get me the length of the TL (use a string) and volume of the driver chamber and width and depth of the channel. I may be able to simulate from that.
The TL length is around 1 meter. I am not really looking for deep bass. Just good enough to go help with lower mid.
I really don't know if you are going to get it. Stick the wrong driver in that and you'll have nothing below about (a guess?!?) 100hz.
Find something with a low VAS and a reasonably low FS. With a QTS of something in the 0.6 and up range. I did a "guess" simulation and the driver that looked least horrible was the Dayton ND90.
ChuckT,
Just to add, I have not heard the LS50 myself, but have read reviews and also got some impressions from a friend who has heard them; from what I read and hear, a single driver wide-band system will not be able to match the LS50 on low frequency capability. I am not only referring to the low frequency extension, but also to "slam" in the 80-200 Hz region. Reviews say that the LS50 handles rock pretty well, especially for a speaker of its size, whereas this is typically an area of weakness for single driver wide-band speakers in my experience.
What sort of music you have in mind and what amplifier?
Btw, is the Peerless NE123W full-range unit or rather a bass-wide sort of driver meant to used with a tweeter?
Just to add, I have not heard the LS50 myself, but have read reviews and also got some impressions from a friend who has heard them; from what I read and hear, a single driver wide-band system will not be able to match the LS50 on low frequency capability. I am not only referring to the low frequency extension, but also to "slam" in the 80-200 Hz region. Reviews say that the LS50 handles rock pretty well, especially for a speaker of its size, whereas this is typically an area of weakness for single driver wide-band speakers in my experience.
What sort of music you have in mind and what amplifier?
Btw, is the Peerless NE123W full-range unit or rather a bass-wide sort of driver meant to used with a tweeter?
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