Using low ESR large value caps after standard 7812/7912 regs is asking for trouble. These regs seriously dislike low ESR caps and tend to oscillate when large value low ESR caps are used. The fact that the device now draws more power says something.....
Secondly using larger filter caps in a preamp (that already has quite some capacitance) often leads to unwished side effects but I guess the placebo effect shows the contrary. This is modding without using common sense.
I don't know what Chris is trying to say about tantalum caps. Modern types perform excellent but their old reputation is indeed quite bad. They failed more than we liked back then and always with a bang and then a full short
that was then and this is now. Every cell phone has them, industrial PSU's have them.
Secondly using larger filter caps in a preamp (that already has quite some capacitance) often leads to unwished side effects but I guess the placebo effect shows the contrary. This is modding without using common sense.
I don't know what Chris is trying to say about tantalum caps. Modern types perform excellent but their old reputation is indeed quite bad. They failed more than we liked back then and always with a bang and then a full short
that was then and this is now. Every cell phone has them, industrial PSU's have them.
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Hi Peter,
I will often use capacitors higher in voltage ratings so that the leads fit exactly in the holes in the PCB. The flatter top supply AC voltage shows that the conduction angle for the diodes has increased - which is good. Use the regular (and highly engineered) rectifier diodes.
Hi Jean-Paul,
Newer Tantalum capacitors are under-rated by voltage, which was the common way to avoid burning blobs. The electronics you are talking about have space as a critical parameter, so there is pressure to go to the smallest package for capacitance.
Tantalum capacitors still sound awful, and can often be replaced with Poly-Aluminum types. I use these instead, and they perform very well. Don't forget that Tantalum capacitors are still intolerant of even brief reverse polarity and heat. Of course, heat attacks every type of capacitor. Some more than others. The only Tantalum capacitors I like are the wet slug variety, but they are very expensive.
-Chris
I will often use capacitors higher in voltage ratings so that the leads fit exactly in the holes in the PCB. The flatter top supply AC voltage shows that the conduction angle for the diodes has increased - which is good. Use the regular (and highly engineered) rectifier diodes.
Hi Jean-Paul,
Newer Tantalum capacitors are under-rated by voltage, which was the common way to avoid burning blobs. The electronics you are talking about have space as a critical parameter, so there is pressure to go to the smallest package for capacitance.
Tantalum capacitors still sound awful, and can often be replaced with Poly-Aluminum types. I use these instead, and they perform very well. Don't forget that Tantalum capacitors are still intolerant of even brief reverse polarity and heat. Of course, heat attacks every type of capacitor. Some more than others. The only Tantalum capacitors I like are the wet slug variety, but they are very expensive.
-Chris
Nothing but good experiences with AVX TPS series ultra low ESR Tantalum caps here. They are quite heat resistant and have low leakage too. I use these in digital audio (a lot) and power supplies. Please note that these are Mn02 solid electrolyte capacitors with no known "wearing out" mechanism, not the classical tantalum drop type cap with its drawbacks. Experiences with their Niobium cap are also positive. I think it is time to bury the negative sentiments towards tantalum caps.
http://www.avx.com/products/tantalum/smd-tantalum-mno2/tps-series/
The SAL RPM series by BC components (or whatever their name is this week) are very good, also as coupling cap. These can be reverse polarized...I stock these in quantities in many values and use them wherever I can. Too bad their pins have unusual distance compared to standard electrolytic caps. Bending the lead wires close to the body of the cap is a no no with these. So some restrictions but they do perform excellent. Out of a habit I over rate them voltage wise but I am not so sure if it is really needed (it does not hurt)
http://www.vishay.com/capacitors/list/product-28354/
IMHO these have very good properties but they're either out of production or they will be as they simply are too expensive for the market. The 122 series is already out of production.
http://www.avx.com/products/tantalum/smd-tantalum-mno2/tps-series/
The SAL RPM series by BC components (or whatever their name is this week) are very good, also as coupling cap. These can be reverse polarized...I stock these in quantities in many values and use them wherever I can. Too bad their pins have unusual distance compared to standard electrolytic caps. Bending the lead wires close to the body of the cap is a no no with these. So some restrictions but they do perform excellent. Out of a habit I over rate them voltage wise but I am not so sure if it is really needed (it does not hurt
)http://www.vishay.com/capacitors/list/product-28354/
IMHO these have very good properties but they're either out of production or they will be as they simply are too expensive for the market. The 122 series is already out of production.
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Hi Jean-Paul,
Since I'm a child of the 60's and 70's, my aversion to Tantalum capacitors is seated quite deeply. At some point I'll be forced to use them, but I have been burned by Tantalum capacitors in the past. I sure you have too. It might take some time for me to relax enough to use them, but for now and the foreseeable future, I'll be suspicious of the little beggars.
Part of the early problems might have been application issues, but I still had to deal with them.
-Chris
Since I'm a child of the 60's and 70's, my aversion to Tantalum capacitors is seated quite deeply. At some point I'll be forced to use them, but I have been burned by Tantalum capacitors in the past. I sure you have too. It might take some time for me to relax enough to use them, but for now and the foreseeable future, I'll be suspicious of the little beggars.
Part of the early problems might have been application issues, but I still had to deal with them.
-Chris
This thread is very long and I gave up search. Maybe a question like mine is buried in here somewhere
in this thread. I am forced to replace 6800µF/35V smoothing capacitors of a Weiliang ES9018 DAC because space is too tight. BTW the "Audo Grade Power Capacitors" are in zthis DACfrom a company called "Nover", but their quality is not the topic.
But measuring 38mm, they are too tall for my needs.
I found Nichicon LKS Capacitors as possible replacements, which measure at least 30mm @35V (Code LKS1V822MESA) Lowering AC Input from 15V to 12V (19 VDC after recificartion, 15V DC after voltage regulator needed) would even allow 25X25mm (Code LKS1E682MESA)
Any experiences with the Nichicon LKS? Any alternatives, also of small sizes?
All the best,
Salar
in this thread. I am forced to replace 6800µF/35V smoothing capacitors of a Weiliang ES9018 DAC because space is too tight. BTW the "Audo Grade Power Capacitors" are in zthis DACfrom a company called "Nover", but their quality is not the topic.
But measuring 38mm, they are too tall for my needs.
I found Nichicon LKS Capacitors as possible replacements, which measure at least 30mm @35V (Code LKS1V822MESA) Lowering AC Input from 15V to 12V (19 VDC after recificartion, 15V DC after voltage regulator needed) would even allow 25X25mm (Code LKS1E682MESA)
Any experiences with the Nichicon LKS? Any alternatives, also of small sizes?
All the best,
Salar
Are you sure the ones that came with it are not performing adequately?
I ask because I have replaced the filter capacitors on one that I have with some mundorf ag, and it was hands down the least bang for the buck as far as mods go. The originals were made by Samwha, were 4,700uf 35v.
I've replaced every capacitor on the board with the exception of a couple that are for the optical receiver that isn't used.
If space is tight, maybe off the board, yet close perhaps?
I ask because I have replaced the filter capacitors on one that I have with some mundorf ag, and it was hands down the least bang for the buck as far as mods go. The originals were made by Samwha, were 4,700uf 35v.
I've replaced every capacitor on the board with the exception of a couple that are for the optical receiver that isn't used.
If space is tight, maybe off the board, yet close perhaps?
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Hi phase!
It is just a matter of space. There is even not enough space to place them next to the board or putting smaller ones in parallel.
Don´t want to go too much into detail, but two boards are put in the casing.
40mm space between them. Ordinary 10µF eat already about 12mm, there is only 25mm left for decoupling caps
Are you talking about the same Weiliang ES0018 board? Because you are mentioning 4700µF. In the schematic it is 1500-4700 indeed. My board came with 6800µF. But I had some emails with those guys because real world values were different from schematic values. But there was wrong capacitors on the board. Thus 4700µF could be correct.
See this thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/237075-diy-es9018-hi-end-usb-dac-28.html
O.K, if 4700µF are sufficient, Panasonic FCs are back in the game, available up to 25V. Could place them horizontally.
But this still means to lover AC Input to 12V. When I am correct, rectification
adds x1.6 equaling to 19.2V DC.
An other candidates for 4700µF/25V/35V?
It is just a matter of space. There is even not enough space to place them next to the board or putting smaller ones in parallel.
Don´t want to go too much into detail, but two boards are put in the casing.
40mm space between them. Ordinary 10µF eat already about 12mm, there is only 25mm left for decoupling caps
Are you talking about the same Weiliang ES0018 board? Because you are mentioning 4700µF. In the schematic it is 1500-4700 indeed. My board came with 6800µF. But I had some emails with those guys because real world values were different from schematic values. But there was wrong capacitors on the board. Thus 4700µF could be correct.
See this thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/237075-diy-es9018-hi-end-usb-dac-28.html
O.K, if 4700µF are sufficient, Panasonic FCs are back in the game, available up to 25V. Could place them horizontally.
But this still means to lover AC Input to 12V. When I am correct, rectification
adds x1.6 equaling to 19.2V DC.
An other candidates for 4700µF/25V/35V?
Have you looked at the Epcos B41252, they have a 4,700uf 35v that is 25mm dia X 27 height, and others that were taller but much smaller in diameter.
My dac is different, however the power requirements will be much the same.
There are other factors to consider than just the capacitance that will grant you a quality result.
In keeping with the intent of this thread, I must report that any time I have used the Panasonic FC, they have been replaced soon after.
My dac is different, however the power requirements will be much the same.
There are other factors to consider than just the capacitance that will grant you a quality result.
In keeping with the intent of this thread, I must report that any time I have used the Panasonic FC, they have been replaced soon after.
Hi Eldam,
To do this kind of work, you really need to know and understand the components that were used, and what you're going to use. Education is the key, and that would be self taught education on your own bench,
-Chris
I'm not too sure who you are asking about this. What I can tell you is that a wet Tantalum capacitor is both compact and far superior to most other types of capacitor. They measure a lot better, and it is difficult to find something that sounds as good in the small space just vacated. I've come across audio equipment where a "Modification hack artist" has removed the wet slug Tantalum capacitors, installing capacitors that aren't even close to the performance of the originals. Once the are replaced with the same wet slug Tantalum capacitors (at great expense!), the SQ issues are resolved.
To do this kind of work, you really need to know and understand the components that were used, and what you're going to use. Education is the key, and that would be self taught education on your own bench,
-Chris
The good cap at the right place is the key : Pan FC is not universal, any cap are ! 10 caps of same x capacitance/y voltage will give different result even with very close datasheets about ESR, ESL, total loss factor, temperature, etc...
I have no pain to imagine an Epcos could be better and sometimes it could be the opposite !
I agree that with capacitors it is very much location/application.
I would nearly always however prefer a Panasonic FM to the FC if it can affect the way things sound.
The FC has produced a gritty, harsh treble response in my DACs and amps, not sure why, since the specs are excellent.
Everyone's hearing is different, so when discussing things like capacitors, it doesn't surprise me that there are preferences either way.
I would nearly always however prefer a Panasonic FM to the FC if it can affect the way things sound.
The FC has produced a gritty, harsh treble response in my DACs and amps, not sure why, since the specs are excellent.
Everyone's hearing is different, so when discussing things like capacitors, it doesn't surprise me that there are preferences either way.
Oh man I assure to you the opposite, my dac is a mix up of FR, FC and FM... and some other things at the right location after extended (2 years tests) and it swap the Black Gate N, NX and OSCON SP and the thousant polylers and so.... And some FC at the good position are less harsch in the mid-end while being less fat...or not (all dépends !)
But I believe yes we agree, question of circuits, aethetic, preference... But some will say you than my DAC setups sounds better than a Soekris in the last setups... can be of course of personal preference at the end ! I remember endless discussions with Jean-Paul about that... hard to find a neutral result which please everybody, sure !
Bu the one who works just with the datasheet only make me laugh (it's not for you or people here...)
But I believe yes we agree, question of circuits, aethetic, preference... But some will say you than my DAC setups sounds better than a Soekris in the last setups... can be of course of personal preference at the end ! I remember endless discussions with Jean-Paul about that... hard to find a neutral result which please everybody, sure !
Bu the one who works just with the datasheet only make me laugh (it's not for you or people here...)
T16D477M075EZSS | Vishay Extreme 470μF Wet Tantalum Electrolytic Capacitor, 75 V dc 20%, T16 Series | Vishay
The expense of a wet tantalum.... Will remember to leave them there....
Nothing but good experiences with AVX TPS series ultra low ESR Tantalum caps here. They are quite heat resistant and have low leakage too. I use these in digital audio (a lot) and power supplies. Please note that these are Mn02 solid electrolyte capacitors with no known "wearing out" mechanism, not the classical tantalum drop type cap with its drawbacks. Experiences with their Niobium cap are also positive. I think it is time to bury the negative sentiments towards tantalum caps.
TPS Series | AVX
The SAL RPM series by BC components (or whatever their name is this week) are very good, also as coupling cap. These can be reverse polarized...I stock these in quantities in many values and use them wherever I can. Too bad their pins have unusual distance compared to standard electrolytic caps. Bending the lead wires close to the body of the cap is a no no with these. So some restrictions but they do perform excellent. Out of a habit I over rate them voltage wise but I am not so sure if it is really needed (it does not hurt
Vishay - Capacitors - 128 SAL-RPM - Aluminum Capacitors Solid AI, Radial Pearl Miniature
IMHO these have very good properties but they're either out of production or they will be as they simply are too expensive for the market. The 122 series is already out of production.
Queston: would the AVX TPS caps work and sound better than electrolytic in a peramp/tonecontrol?
Thanks
T16D477M075EZSS | Vishay Extreme 470μF Wet Tantalum Electrolytic Capacitor, 75 V dc 20%, T16 Series | Vishay
The expense of a wet tantalum.... Will remember to leave them there....
In some countries if you have no money in the Pocket you can pay with it....