On paper it looks very impressive, good xmax, shorting ring and pole cap.. Would be very interested in how it sounds Qualitatively vs the magnum 12?
If you could do some comparison of mtm+ mag12 vs mtm+465s.
A major difference may be midrange performance due to diameter difference, but with your low xo frequency it should not be a strong factor?
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If you could do some comparison of mtm+ mag12 vs mtm+465s.
A major difference may be midrange performance due to diameter difference, but with your low xo frequency it should not be a strong factor?
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Yes easy enough to do! My idea is to use the Mag 12 in the 65-150hz range where it shines and let the 18 do below. With a fully active system it will be easy to experiment, I'll keep you posted!
Javad
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PA465S Subwoofer Addition
Built the PA465S subwoofer, listening impressions and more info at: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/293598-18-pa465s-sfe812-subwoofer-build.html 🙂
Built the PA465S subwoofer, listening impressions and more info at: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/293598-18-pa465s-sfe812-subwoofer-build.html 🙂
Did you take measurements?
I would be interested in measurments with/without a kid as sound absorption in the sub. That's breaking new ground, and I have three kids so I could even build a third sub! 🙂
I would be interested in measurments with/without a kid as sound absorption in the sub. That's breaking new ground, and I have three kids so I could even build a third sub! 🙂
Haha @leeinskiH01 =) yes see the build thread, also see here:
That's nearfield with the mic centered on the tweeter, from the listening position bass is easily flat to 20hz and below.
Thanks!
Javad
That's nearfield with the mic centered on the tweeter, from the listening position bass is easily flat to 20hz and below.
Thanks!
Javad
Haha @leeinskiH01 =) yes see the build thread, also see here:
That's nearfield with the mic centered on the tweeter, from the listening position bass is easily flat to 20hz and below.
Thanks!
Javad
Nice response!
Do you happen to have a larger vertical scale centered around 80dB. More interested in frequencies above 70Hz. You are applying DSP, right?
Sure I can load that up tonight. Yes miniDSP, about 2-3 filters on each driver, that is with 1/6 smoothing.
Thanks!
Here you go, let me know if that's what you were looking for @lewinskiH01
Thank you.
So no DSP applied, 1/6 smoothing, measured nearfield in line with the SEOS. Looks good.
Do you happen to have farfield with less smoothing?🙂
Do you perceive lobbing? What's the xo SEOS to midranges? It's a downside commonly mentioned here regarding MTM with large drivers. I'm particularly interested because at some point I thought of going MTM around my TPL tweeter (also large) and was talked out of it mainly because of lobbbing concerns.
Definitely DSP, I don't see a horn being this smooth in FR w/o it or a good passive network. I am using 3 filters on the tweeter. Less smoothing doesn't change it much so I stuck with 1/6
1500hz at 24db , I pushed it as low as I could, and put the drivers as close together to address or minimize that. Frankly I don't hear any lobing, there is a bump in response which could be relate to lobing diffraction but that is easily eq'd out. A major design goal for these speakers was high spl and they deliver, I didn't want any issues with strained midrange at 110db and louder and these deliver in that regard.
I know, I went through the same thought process and some warned me of how bad it would sound, but I decided to go MTM (I was originally seriously considering one 12" mid), and these speakers sound stunning, I've never heard anything like them (read my listening review in the build thread).
It's easy to get lost in the theory and the measurements and modeling, but what we hear is often not easily measured and psychoacoustic.
It's also an experiment, this won't be my last speaker build (I've done 8 since Feb) and with each one I learn a little about what works and what doesn't for myself.
But again to reiterate, no audio gremlins I can hear with the optimization of this configuration, i'd wholeheartedly recommend this build to anyone looking for a very smooth, detailed and loud speaker. I will also likely do a more traditional build in the future as well just so I can have had the experience of doing both.
Thanks!
Javad
Hi Javad
Re: system tuning, it's been interesting reading your experiences and preferences about your system response. Do you have a preference for a 'flat' response from 200Hz up in all situations or just with your system in that room? I recall reading that a flat response will appear more balanced in 'large' and open spaces (which apparently your room is).
Re: your response at the LP, have you tried to flatten the two bumps between 4 - 8kHz? I ask because whilst those bumps may give a sense of increased clarity I'd expect they'd also add sibilance (harsh Sss sounds). Sitting on-axis would amplify this effect too.
Also, have you tried to address the two bumps at 600 and 1200Hz? I'd imagine they may become more noticeable if you flatten out the top end.
Keen to hear how your toe-in and new Tymphany experiments go.
Regards, Mark
Re: system tuning, it's been interesting reading your experiences and preferences about your system response. Do you have a preference for a 'flat' response from 200Hz up in all situations or just with your system in that room? I recall reading that a flat response will appear more balanced in 'large' and open spaces (which apparently your room is).
Re: your response at the LP, have you tried to flatten the two bumps between 4 - 8kHz? I ask because whilst those bumps may give a sense of increased clarity I'd expect they'd also add sibilance (harsh Sss sounds). Sitting on-axis would amplify this effect too.
Also, have you tried to address the two bumps at 600 and 1200Hz? I'd imagine they may become more noticeable if you flatten out the top end.
Keen to hear how your toe-in and new Tymphany experiments go.
Regards, Mark
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Hey Mark, thanks for the comments!
Any of my comments are related to the work I've done in the current room. I can say in my past audio life going back to 15 years ago I always preferred a boosted smiley face EQ curve, I've matured quite a bit from that. But currently I can say I honestly prefer slightly boosted bass and lively treble, with the DE250 I seem to prefer flat to slightly 1-2db hot.
It's a matter of how many filters do I want to put on each driver, miniDSP gives you five per channel, I currently have 4, and frankly I haven't been able to hear any difference in 1-2db in that narrow of a range. These tweeters do not sound harsh or sibilant at all in the slightest.
Ultimately from what I've seen over the past few months, I can only put so much weight into FR curves, they are difficult and less than accurate when measured in-room and many other factors come into play.
There is certainly a sense of pride making a curve that is + or - 2 DB (as this pretty much is), but ultimately what I'm tuning for is what sounds best to my ears.
Will keep you posted, plan on doing that this weekend.
Thanks!
Javad
Any of my comments are related to the work I've done in the current room. I can say in my past audio life going back to 15 years ago I always preferred a boosted smiley face EQ curve, I've matured quite a bit from that. But currently I can say I honestly prefer slightly boosted bass and lively treble, with the DE250 I seem to prefer flat to slightly 1-2db hot.
It's a matter of how many filters do I want to put on each driver, miniDSP gives you five per channel, I currently have 4, and frankly I haven't been able to hear any difference in 1-2db in that narrow of a range. These tweeters do not sound harsh or sibilant at all in the slightest.
Ultimately from what I've seen over the past few months, I can only put so much weight into FR curves, they are difficult and less than accurate when measured in-room and many other factors come into play.
There is certainly a sense of pride making a curve that is + or - 2 DB (as this pretty much is), but ultimately what I'm tuning for is what sounds best to my ears.
Will keep you posted, plan on doing that this weekend.
Thanks!
Javad
I would love to see harmonic distortion measurements for the system with the sub, without the sub, and just the sub.
Seos 12 8" Faitalpro MTM 12" Subwoofer towers
Here you go @dynomike, in room mic about 1 meter centered on CD
Here you go @dynomike, in room mic about 1 meter centered on CD
Here you go @dynomike, in room mic about 1 meter centered on CD
Thanks for those. I did expect a bit of distortion from the Dayton PA sub but not from the other woofer - maybe that is just a bad measurement artifact? That 120Hz peak is totally gone in the "with sub" measurement.
The distortion on the subwoofer <30Hz looks bad, but probably isn't audible: Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Is It a Good Indicator of Sound Quality? | Audioholics
From 40Hz upwards it looks just awesome, especially through the range of the Faital drivers. Compression driver is really admirable too - I wouldn't have thought it would be so smooth. There is that 2nd harmonic peak at the low end of the horn, but at -40dB, probably not audible either.
Is that the real SPL? Would also be interesting to measure the distortion (whole system) at +6, +12dB, +18dB (but wear earplugs).
Great job on the design and build! 🙂
Hi JShadzi, i'm re-reading this review again today, and am curious on your comment about using dual 15"s specifically B&C 15TBW100. Would you consider the dual B&Cs 'better' than doubling up - dual magnum 12s per speaker?
Hey, no I think 2 Mag 12 per side would be just as good, they hit very hard and are really accurate, and they'd hold up fine to 1 15" no problem.
I may still build a module with 2 more to go along with the main towers.
Thanks!
Javad
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