Folks,
I'm relatively new to the DIY audio world. I've had lots of fun building some speaker plans that I have found around the internet, mainly with the intent of using them in a digital (Hauptwerk) organ build, utilizing 24+ audio channels.
Of the 10 or so plans that I have built, the Windermere^2 with the 45 degree baffle is by far my favorite! (Many thanks to the designer!) I started the following thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/289483-new-forum-looking-speaker-design-unique-situation.html
There are several pictures of the sanctuary to give an idea of the volume of the space.
And it was recommended that I use the new Mark Audio Pluvia 7.
I have to say, I am VERY VERY VERY happy with this design and it's character, especially as it applies to it's intended use in a digital organ. The twin drivers, facing in different directions, certainly do a nice job of creating the ambience and reflections that are needed in such a situation.
The frequency range is also pretty good. Theoretically this won't be used much below 64Hz as a sub will start to take over.
I do, however, have one concern -- output / dynamic range. I am afraid that these things simply won't have enough output (volume) to really fill the large space that I am up against, even with 24 or more of them. (I am more than willing to be wrong about this if someone thinks it won't be a issue.)
I'm curious if anyone knows of a design of a similar aesthetic, perhaps using a larger driver, or driver with capabilities of providing more output.
Or, does anyone know if the original designer is open being 'commissioned' to do a redesign for a "larger" version??
Any thoughts and comments are welcome.
Thank you,
Drew
I'm relatively new to the DIY audio world. I've had lots of fun building some speaker plans that I have found around the internet, mainly with the intent of using them in a digital (Hauptwerk) organ build, utilizing 24+ audio channels.
Of the 10 or so plans that I have built, the Windermere^2 with the 45 degree baffle is by far my favorite! (Many thanks to the designer!) I started the following thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/289483-new-forum-looking-speaker-design-unique-situation.html
There are several pictures of the sanctuary to give an idea of the volume of the space.
And it was recommended that I use the new Mark Audio Pluvia 7.
I have to say, I am VERY VERY VERY happy with this design and it's character, especially as it applies to it's intended use in a digital organ. The twin drivers, facing in different directions, certainly do a nice job of creating the ambience and reflections that are needed in such a situation.
The frequency range is also pretty good. Theoretically this won't be used much below 64Hz as a sub will start to take over.
I do, however, have one concern -- output / dynamic range. I am afraid that these things simply won't have enough output (volume) to really fill the large space that I am up against, even with 24 or more of them. (I am more than willing to be wrong about this if someone thinks it won't be a issue.)
I'm curious if anyone knows of a design of a similar aesthetic, perhaps using a larger driver, or driver with capabilities of providing more output.
Or, does anyone know if the original designer is open being 'commissioned' to do a redesign for a "larger" version??
Any thoughts and comments are welcome.
Thank you,
Drew
Judging from the space you have there, which is decidedly 'not small', I'd say you're going to be struggling with what are in the great scheme of things small drivers / speakers for the environment. I can certainly do larger versions with suitable drivers, although the cabinet dimensions increase quite quickly. If you're happy with that, let me know. They're essentially my take on Nessie style resonant tubes, as I quite liked the idea of them, but wasn't convinced about the alignment of the originals. So I came up with my own. I'm very glad you like them; not many have been built AFAIK, but they have their uses.
Be that as it may, spaces like the one indicated are essentially why pro-audio systems, be they array variations or big horn setups exist. Something like an Altec VOTT A2 (or the slightly more managably sized A5 & A7) may do the trick, especially if you've got subs covering the < 60Hz region.
Be that as it may, spaces like the one indicated are essentially why pro-audio systems, be they array variations or big horn setups exist. Something like an Altec VOTT A2 (or the slightly more managably sized A5 & A7) may do the trick, especially if you've got subs covering the < 60Hz region.
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I'm assuming, via context clues, that you are the designer for that series?
Nice to "meet" you.
I really like the character of these things, especially when considering their intended function. Imagine each one of them essentially being an organ pipe.
Various pitches will be routed to specific "pipes" (ie - one (pair of) Windermere^2 will handle all "C's" above 64Hz, another for all D's, another for all E's, etc. etc.
This means I need 12 stereo pairs (24 total Windermere^2's) to handle C, C#, D, D#, -----> B
Since the samples are recorded in stereo, they will be played back in stereo. 12 chromatic pitches in a scale, in stereo, equals 24 Windermere^2's.
It is possible to break the samples up even further by timbre. All C Reeds, can be routed to one pair, all C Flutes can be routed to one pair, etc. If space and money permit, more is always better!
I do have some questions, though. Since these are twin-driver designs, about how much output would be lost if I ran each driver as a separate channel. (ie - 12 Windermere^2 pairs (24 total) would actually have 48 drivers. Technically, then, one pair of Windermere^2's could handle C for Flutes and the lower driver could handle C for reeds?
I've also considered this "variation" on the design to simplify the build.... (please pardon the crude sketch, as I just scribbled it down on the fly)
But, if I were serious about a slight re-design, to a larger driver (Mark Audio, Dayton, open to suggestion), since I am definitely NOT knowledgable in the proper design of speakers, what would it take to get you interested in doing it?
Nice to "meet" you.
I really like the character of these things, especially when considering their intended function. Imagine each one of them essentially being an organ pipe.
Various pitches will be routed to specific "pipes" (ie - one (pair of) Windermere^2 will handle all "C's" above 64Hz, another for all D's, another for all E's, etc. etc.
This means I need 12 stereo pairs (24 total Windermere^2's) to handle C, C#, D, D#, -----> B
Since the samples are recorded in stereo, they will be played back in stereo. 12 chromatic pitches in a scale, in stereo, equals 24 Windermere^2's.
It is possible to break the samples up even further by timbre. All C Reeds, can be routed to one pair, all C Flutes can be routed to one pair, etc. If space and money permit, more is always better!
I do have some questions, though. Since these are twin-driver designs, about how much output would be lost if I ran each driver as a separate channel. (ie - 12 Windermere^2 pairs (24 total) would actually have 48 drivers. Technically, then, one pair of Windermere^2's could handle C for Flutes and the lower driver could handle C for reeds?
I've also considered this "variation" on the design to simplify the build.... (please pardon the crude sketch, as I just scribbled it down on the fly)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
But, if I were serious about a slight re-design, to a larger driver (Mark Audio, Dayton, open to suggestion), since I am definitely NOT knowledgable in the proper design of speakers, what would it take to get you interested in doing it?
Hi Drew,
I've been following what you've been doing with interest both here and on the Hauptwerk forum. The issue of output has been a concern for me too (with these drivers limited to 20W Nom I think).
This calculator is interesting as it suggests that 24 x 20 W (86dB SPL) would produce ~87dB (very loud) at a listening position 90' away from the source. Given the way the frequencies are distributed across all speakers it is probably not reasonable to think that every driver would be outputting at 20W, but even if you derated this to 7.5W the result at the listening position is still 82dB.
This may not be a common problem here, but when you need 24 channels of amplification (or more) it makes a big difference to the investment needed to drive the system!
I have no direct experience of how this may translate into the real world though...
I've been following what you've been doing with interest both here and on the Hauptwerk forum. The issue of output has been a concern for me too (with these drivers limited to 20W Nom I think).
This calculator is interesting as it suggests that 24 x 20 W (86dB SPL) would produce ~87dB (very loud) at a listening position 90' away from the source. Given the way the frequencies are distributed across all speakers it is probably not reasonable to think that every driver would be outputting at 20W, but even if you derated this to 7.5W the result at the listening position is still 82dB.
This may not be a common problem here, but when you need 24 channels of amplification (or more) it makes a big difference to the investment needed to drive the system!
I have no direct experience of how this may translate into the real world though...
Thank you for the input. I'm sort of stumbling around in the dark, here. I like this Windermere^2 design, A LOT! I find myself just wanting to build another pair to leave in my studio room for general listening purposes.
Using them in such a large space has me worried. Your calculator link is very useful and helpful.
I am curious about the ability to build them in a "larger" version - using, say, a 6" or 6.5" driver (from either Mark Audio or even Dayton, etc.). I just don't know how to do the math. I don't know the magic formulas, as I've never designed a speaker enclosure before. All I know how to do is follow successful blueprints.
Assuming the price is right, and I can trust the designer/design, I'd be willing to pay for such a service.
I am too, though both the larger Full Range drivers from MA, the 12P (8") and the 10P (6.6") are only 30W Nom.
I am interested in trying to approach this from a different direction. What sound pressure level (SPL) do we need at a distance (say 90', a large hall) to replicate the sound on an 'organ' (I know that there is no standard!) using speakers. How many speakers, and at what output?
A cathedral choir of 20 voices can fill a huge space (Gloucester Cathedral). If you look at the bottom of this page, 'Sound Levels of Music, you can see what SPL an individual singer produces (along with other instruments). To summarise...
- a Fortissimo Singer at 3' produces an SPL of 70 dB
- a concert piano generates 100dB
- Symphonic music (peak) produces 120-137 dB
I understand that sound pressure level (SPL) decreases with the doubling of the distance by (−)6 dB, then moving from 3' to 90' would reduce the SPL of:
- the singer by appprox. 30dB to 40dB (at 90')- which is a whisper
- the piano to 70dB (at 90') - which is similar to a loud conversational volume
- the Orchestra to 90dB-107dB (at 90') - which is a similar volume range of City Traffic (inside car) or a motorbike at 3'
These figures don't feel wrong from experience?
So to realistically replicate a symphonic organ piece in a 90' hall, the speakers in total need to generate an SPL of at least 85 dB at 90'. Using the Calculator from my previous post, we can get...
- 84-87dB at 90' distance from 24 x 20 W speakers (sensitivity - 86 dBSPL 1W/1m)
This would suggest that you would be not far off with the Windermere2 designs (given that the Windermere2 are 40W nom speaker (2 drivers)? ).
If you also consider that 'one-third of the total power of a 75-piece orchestra comes from the bass drum' (from footnote) perhaps a compromise scheme would be to use the Windermere2s for the manual 16' stops and 8' stops, use a cheaper design (Derwent, Pensil7) for 4' and 2' ranks, and maybe a sealed cabinet (7 litre) for the mutations and top notes, and then back these up with larger subs / TLs for the pedal division (where you would only need 1 or 2 subs for each of the 32' and 16' ranks, it is rare to use more than 2 notes at a time on the pedal division, although I did see Jonathon Hope at Gloucester last week playing 4 notes!)
I'm not sure if this input is either useful or relevant to the OP, but I hope that it provides food for thought! I am trying to solve the same problem, and am keen to spend a limited budget wisely!
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I have my own alignment for these encosures. Glad you like them, they don't get much of an airing.
To be honest, I would be a trifle wary about using single-driver type systems in a pro-audio environment. Line arrays or large horns tend to be preferred in large spaces, usually with active bass units. Re electrical power handling, it's essentially that of a single drive unit multipled by the total number used per channel. A large number of VCs should dissipate more heat than one or two large coils, which is not to be sniffed at. However, you need to keep in mind the fact that you may run out of mechanical travel before you reach the limit of electrical power handling. So on that basis, for a large church / hall type environment, I would be inclined toward a line array / J array, sealed box with HF EQ applied, and 2 - 4 large subwoofers, either sealed or Danley-style double-tapped horns.
To be honest, I would be a trifle wary about using single-driver type systems in a pro-audio environment. Line arrays or large horns tend to be preferred in large spaces, usually with active bass units. Re electrical power handling, it's essentially that of a single drive unit multipled by the total number used per channel. A large number of VCs should dissipate more heat than one or two large coils, which is not to be sniffed at. However, you need to keep in mind the fact that you may run out of mechanical travel before you reach the limit of electrical power handling. So on that basis, for a large church / hall type environment, I would be inclined toward a line array / J array, sealed box with HF EQ applied, and 2 - 4 large subwoofers, either sealed or Danley-style double-tapped horns.
Does this approach still work when you need multiple discrete channels (I'm looking at 40 channels)? I know virtual pipe organs are a very specialist case, but they rely on distributing individual pipe tones to different speakers (hence multiple channels), and then have the signals mix in the air. VPOs are trying to replicate the sound from real pipe organs which have hundreds / thousands of pipes, each producing a single note.
A number of church style installations have been achieved using dozens of pairs of active reference monitors (such as the Behringer Truth b2031a, £300 per pair) + subs. Another used 22 x active PAs QSC K12 (£600+ each) + 2 subs. I (and maybe Drew) am looking for a different, and hopefully cheaper and better sounding approach!
Mark
Drew - I'd forget about trying something like this with any full range driver I've ever heard of. What is the size of the largest pipe and amount of air movement you're hoping to replicate, and the size of the hall?
There's another thread on similar subject line where for a small home situation I've suggested a compact semi-pro PA type arrangement. In a much larger venue, I think Scott's right on the money with combination of purpose designed line arrays and multiple large sub woofer bins / horns.
Somethings are subject to immutable laws of physics, and "full bandwidth sound " as in from below 20Hz to above 18K at anywhere near the realistic level in a church is definitely one of them.
There's another thread on similar subject line where for a small home situation I've suggested a compact semi-pro PA type arrangement. In a much larger venue, I think Scott's right on the money with combination of purpose designed line arrays and multiple large sub woofer bins / horns.
Somethings are subject to immutable laws of physics, and "full bandwidth sound " as in from below 20Hz to above 18K at anywhere near the realistic level in a church is definitely one of them.
I have been busy and unable to reply over the last couple of days. Thank you for all of the information, folks. I am going to start with the above quote and ask some questions.
"What's the size of the largest pipe...." Theoretically, it would only be down to about 64Hz. 32Hz if I could get it cleanly, in a slightly larger design (as suggested above). I have subs that will handle anything below the bottom end of whatever full range design I come up with...
I did build a pair of line arrays, but I can't say yet if they are ideal or not. My initial idea was to actually use arrays. However, my brain got to thinking... An actual organ does not use line array theory, so why would I use that now?
I pipe organ can be thought of as a box with a thousand or so small drivers playing into a box. That's what initially attracted me to the Windermere .... IT LOOKS like an organ pipe. Compare it against the look of an 8' Gedeckt pipe, for example....
That pipe/tube makes for a GREAT full ambience, while the twin drivers (one facing straight on and the other at 45 degrees) also create a great amount of reflections and will certainly help in creating a bit more ambience in such a dry acoustic space.
I like the idea of line arrays, and I've seen some small modular line array designs using Mark Audio drivers, such as the CHR Array. I don't know if they are capable of a nice bottom end.
I think I'm going to need a bit more time to digest all of the input and come up with a more cohesive response. I feel like I know very little about the deep science of design, in this regard, and I'm trying to rely on intuition and my knowledge of organs rather than diyAudio.
Full range line array plus subs below 100Hz....Job done!
Hi Drew,
Good sound systems in the challenging acoustics inside churches are not easy, but if you can build the cabinets your self and your budget allows you to buy good drivers I am sure a pair of full range line arrays plus two or four sealed box 15 inch subs will give you a great result.
One important point on point source Vs line array:
All point sources reduce in SPL with a 6dB per doubling of distance.
All line arrays reduce in SPL by 3dB per doubling of distance.
Note, a line array is not 4 or 6 drivers in a line...thats a mini array and responds more like a point source.
Line array performance only kicks in when the length of the array is equal to or greater than 75% of the floor to ceiling height of the room its being used in. This rule begins to ease a bit in rooms taller than 5 meters and by the time you get to line arrays taller than 6 meters they only drop by 3 to 3.5 db per doubling of distance in open air gigs.
As a reference point the attached LA 16 is 103dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter, is an easy 6.6Ohm flat load and covers 100Hz to 20KHz.
It uses our latest 5 inch (Sd 85) alloy framed RED driver and each driver can handle 100 watts AES power ie happy with 200 watt to amplifiers.
It will hold 87 dB continuous SPL with 93 dB peaks all day long at 32 meters (approx 110ft)...These are free space figures, so add approx 6dB for boundary reinforcement if you hang them on walls.
At less than 6 inches deep these are perfect for hanging on walls / pillars etc.
If you use laminated birch ply construction like the attached studio monitors its easy to achieve a natural "Church friendly" finish.
Last suggestion is to buy a good $1,000 approx AV receiver (Yamaha / Denon) to power them, use the DSP for crossover (100Hz) and Eq. You can get a killer deal on last years models and have a good 7 channels of 120 watts plus good reliability and efficiency.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Drew,
Good sound systems in the challenging acoustics inside churches are not easy, but if you can build the cabinets your self and your budget allows you to buy good drivers I am sure a pair of full range line arrays plus two or four sealed box 15 inch subs will give you a great result.
One important point on point source Vs line array:
All point sources reduce in SPL with a 6dB per doubling of distance.
All line arrays reduce in SPL by 3dB per doubling of distance.
Note, a line array is not 4 or 6 drivers in a line...thats a mini array and responds more like a point source.
Line array performance only kicks in when the length of the array is equal to or greater than 75% of the floor to ceiling height of the room its being used in. This rule begins to ease a bit in rooms taller than 5 meters and by the time you get to line arrays taller than 6 meters they only drop by 3 to 3.5 db per doubling of distance in open air gigs.
As a reference point the attached LA 16 is 103dB for 1 watt @ 1 meter, is an easy 6.6Ohm flat load and covers 100Hz to 20KHz.
It uses our latest 5 inch (Sd 85) alloy framed RED driver and each driver can handle 100 watts AES power ie happy with 200 watt to amplifiers.
It will hold 87 dB continuous SPL with 93 dB peaks all day long at 32 meters (approx 110ft)...These are free space figures, so add approx 6dB for boundary reinforcement if you hang them on walls.
At less than 6 inches deep these are perfect for hanging on walls / pillars etc.
If you use laminated birch ply construction like the attached studio monitors its easy to achieve a natural "Church friendly" finish.
Last suggestion is to buy a good $1,000 approx AV receiver (Yamaha / Denon) to power them, use the DSP for crossover (100Hz) and Eq. You can get a killer deal on last years models and have a good 7 channels of 120 watts plus good reliability and efficiency.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
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