Here is one opinion (by Roger Russell, former director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory, and responsible for the design of the McIntosh speakers):
Double blind tests are useless. If you can't hear a difference with gear without a double blind test you should take up a different hobby.
Ah, so what you are saying is that if you rely just on your ears, without other cues, you should take up a different hobby. You might be right. 🙂
Yes. I linked to his broader discussion on cables a few posts ago. Read the broader piece about the Monster Cable promotion box...
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It funny, how people who demand blind testing rarely use it themselves. It is just easier to demand other people to do so. Some of them know that building a proper blind testing that is scientifically gosher is not an easy task.
They also know that if someone does blind testing, and the result is not what they like, it is still up to debate. For one, you need to do the same several times, and then comes the technical parts, how was the blind testing build...and even after a blind testing the discussion just goes on and on...or even if the tester is just lying.
In conclusion, only way to get acceptable blind testing is that the person who demands blind testing arranges one accepting the terms where and how the difference is heard, ie. in the tester's home with testers equipment and music and time. Otherwise blind testing is just waste of everybody's time. It just creates another long thread, which doesn't mean anything.
Yet, even after the blind testing is done this way, the proper vay, the result will still be important for one party and not the other. But at least its a proper blind testing, regardless of the result.
They also know that if someone does blind testing, and the result is not what they like, it is still up to debate. For one, you need to do the same several times, and then comes the technical parts, how was the blind testing build...and even after a blind testing the discussion just goes on and on...or even if the tester is just lying.
In conclusion, only way to get acceptable blind testing is that the person who demands blind testing arranges one accepting the terms where and how the difference is heard, ie. in the tester's home with testers equipment and music and time. Otherwise blind testing is just waste of everybody's time. It just creates another long thread, which doesn't mean anything.
Yet, even after the blind testing is done this way, the proper vay, the result will still be important for one party and not the other. But at least its a proper blind testing, regardless of the result.
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Some are just so insecure that they must choose a belief system and cling to it so they can be a part of something much bigger. It's just another form of religion. Others are secure with themselves and choose what they like based on what the 5 senses they are born with tell them.
Tbh, i think mostly the people demanding blind testing are just simpletons or a**holes. I don't see the benefit in playing their game. There are exceptions tho. If you know the other party is not going to make you look like a loser in public after the testing and if they get what they want, then it is ok (kinda gentlemans rules). Otherwise, i can't recommend.
For instance when Julf was...almost...coming here testing me with cables (back in the hypex forum), he seemed like a gentleman, but now...i am not so sure if is it all scientifical, or just feed his hatred against "the other kind". I don't feel the need to be part of that.
For instance when Julf was...almost...coming here testing me with cables (back in the hypex forum), he seemed like a gentleman, but now...i am not so sure if is it all scientifical, or just feed his hatred against "the other kind". I don't feel the need to be part of that.
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The real issue boils down to social conditioning. We are all born to this world with our 5 senses. 90% of what we come to believe as adults is based on social conditioning, not what we have learnt on our own. Unfortunately this gets worse as we age. What's imperative is understanding this truth at a young enough age that it we don't fall victim to it. Either that or stick with the mantra "ignorance is bliss" and eat whatever pill, or follow whatever sect takes you to the promise land.
Only 5? I would have thought you'd need more to hear differences in copper wiring within an amp.
The convenient thing about the "I just trust my ears crowd" is that they can never be proven wrong in a public debate except if subjected to a rigorous double-blind test. It's a really cozy position to be in.
It's much less cozy and much more difficult to be completely and utterly honest with oneself about what one can and can't hear.
It's natural to want to be a fanboy about our latest system purchases. It's really hard to admit "wow, I spent all that money and I struggle to hear a difference." And even if one does, it's natural to keep on rolling with a "well, it has to be better."
I'd argue that if you claim you can hear differences between two sufficiently conductive and appropriately terminated wires within an amp then you're either completely dishonest, stark raving mad or smoking something very good. (Or some combination of all three.)
I'd say I have an above average system with associated above average expenditure incurred. I've fallen victim to snake oil sales pitches too many times for my liking. I'd like to think, however, that I've started to learn a lot more which will help me to avoid as many such honey traps in the future.
I still keep some pieces of equipment in plain view to remind me. One good example is a set of Wave Kinetics A10-U8 that someone on WhatsBestForum convinced me I needed to place under the Krell amp driving my main speakers. $750 of complete bollocks. Cables are another, but they tend to be less visible reminders of expenditure stupidity. (The last lot of cables I acquired I wired up myself - just as good and a fraction of the price of snake oil offerings.)
The convenient thing about the "I just trust my ears crowd" is that they can never be proven wrong in a public debate except if subjected to a rigorous double-blind test. It's a really cozy position to be in.
It's much less cozy and much more difficult to be completely and utterly honest with oneself about what one can and can't hear.
It's natural to want to be a fanboy about our latest system purchases. It's really hard to admit "wow, I spent all that money and I struggle to hear a difference." And even if one does, it's natural to keep on rolling with a "well, it has to be better."
I'd argue that if you claim you can hear differences between two sufficiently conductive and appropriately terminated wires within an amp then you're either completely dishonest, stark raving mad or smoking something very good. (Or some combination of all three.)
I'd say I have an above average system with associated above average expenditure incurred. I've fallen victim to snake oil sales pitches too many times for my liking. I'd like to think, however, that I've started to learn a lot more which will help me to avoid as many such honey traps in the future.
I still keep some pieces of equipment in plain view to remind me. One good example is a set of Wave Kinetics A10-U8 that someone on WhatsBestForum convinced me I needed to place under the Krell amp driving my main speakers. $750 of complete bollocks. Cables are another, but they tend to be less visible reminders of expenditure stupidity. (The last lot of cables I acquired I wired up myself - just as good and a fraction of the price of snake oil offerings.)
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The "I just trust my ears crowd" at least gets what their ears want. Has it never occurred to you that the "I just trust my ears crowd" don't just care what the "clueless" want? And it is not the job of "I just trust my ears crowd" for defining the best for the "clueless" nor prove that there is something better. The "clueless" just need to not be so clueless and soon they find their own way, and hopefully realize it is not the only way and respect the other ways of gaining personal nirvana too.
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Who are you calling "clueless"?
Oh how quickly such conversations denigrate to "You're an idiot. No, you're an idiot!"
Good luck with your quest for audio enlightenment. Just try to stay honest along the way, even if only to yourself.
In the interim we await feedback from Colin's endeavours with Neotech wire. Perhaps it will be revolutionary and we can all begin to fret about what type of solder Hypex uses on their amp modules (or whether a cheap crimp tool can make the necessary termination of wire to Faston connector).
PS: I still love the bit at 2 minutes 15 seconds in this video. The whole thing is a reminder to not take this hobby too seriously.
https://vimeo.com/25761812
Oh how quickly such conversations denigrate to "You're an idiot. No, you're an idiot!"
Good luck with your quest for audio enlightenment. Just try to stay honest along the way, even if only to yourself.
In the interim we await feedback from Colin's endeavours with Neotech wire. Perhaps it will be revolutionary and we can all begin to fret about what type of solder Hypex uses on their amp modules (or whether a cheap crimp tool can make the necessary termination of wire to Faston connector).
PS: I still love the bit at 2 minutes 15 seconds in this video. The whole thing is a reminder to not take this hobby too seriously.
https://vimeo.com/25761812
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Are we going into martyr-mode 🙂? Just say what is in your mind. You don't need to fake all there feelings.
Very nice video tho. sound good, must be very good system 😉. Which comes to the fact that in this thread we are pretty effective money-wise. Boggit's amp is much cost effective as they come. IMO, it is one the best amps there is in price ranges i have been able to hear at home.
If you study little bit how the incoming sound is dealt in the brain, you will believe that subjective sound quality is totally different from objective sound quality. In pure objective world there is no sound, nor there is color. When it comes to things that only bring happiness through human sensory system, only proper way to analyse is privately and subjectively.
Very nice video tho. sound good, must be very good system 😉. Which comes to the fact that in this thread we are pretty effective money-wise. Boggit's amp is much cost effective as they come. IMO, it is one the best amps there is in price ranges i have been able to hear at home.
If you study little bit how the incoming sound is dealt in the brain, you will believe that subjective sound quality is totally different from objective sound quality. In pure objective world there is no sound, nor there is color. When it comes to things that only bring happiness through human sensory system, only proper way to analyse is privately and subjectively.
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And thanks to Bavmike who was there to suggest such a thing in the first place. But you, mister SGK, you haven't done anything to benefit this project, nor has mister Julf. On the contrary. I can't understand why you are acting here like big c***s you are. Giving people hard time, who are trying to make this thing work.
It would be beneficial for this project if both of you disappeared to hunt subjective people elsewhere. Then there would be 0% bickering and bulls**t like this.
It would be beneficial for this project if both of you disappeared to hunt subjective people elsewhere. Then there would be 0% bickering and bulls**t like this.
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Unfortunately I think the DIY Forum is not really the place for this kind of OEM thread...
There are other places like AVForums with more Subjective type people on them.
In SGKs defence he has offered up a few Buffer ideas and answers technical questions, as does Julf
We need a balanced view in these things
There are other places like AVForums with more Subjective type people on them.
In SGKs defence he has offered up a few Buffer ideas and answers technical questions, as does Julf
We need a balanced view in these things
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