Hi,
WHat about this one for a lower XO than a 1" tweeter : for instance 800 Hz to 8 000 Hz and then allowing an AMT, Ribbon, what ever from 8 K Hz to what ever our doggies like (Be new tweeters or fame AMT)? (simple XT-25 tweeter ?)
DOes anyone experienced this one : http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-857-tang-band-75-1558se-specifications-45755.pdf : could it be a little horned to have a little spl efficienty gain (around 5 dB for instance) ? (with a 3" throat to don't break the good dome dispersion behavior).
Or is this a better strategy from 150 to.... 6000-8000 Hz to use this one : Tang Band W8-1772 8" Neodymium Full Range Driver
Thanks a lot for your testimonial if you heared these drivers 🙂 (the idea behind is to try to chose Keys Fhz as XO and simple as possible when possible like LR2 slope for instance)
WHat about this one for a lower XO than a 1" tweeter : for instance 800 Hz to 8 000 Hz and then allowing an AMT, Ribbon, what ever from 8 K Hz to what ever our doggies like (Be new tweeters or fame AMT)? (simple XT-25 tweeter ?)
DOes anyone experienced this one : http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-857-tang-band-75-1558se-specifications-45755.pdf : could it be a little horned to have a little spl efficienty gain (around 5 dB for instance) ? (with a 3" throat to don't break the good dome dispersion behavior).
Or is this a better strategy from 150 to.... 6000-8000 Hz to use this one : Tang Band W8-1772 8" Neodymium Full Range Driver
Thanks a lot for your testimonial if you heared these drivers 🙂 (the idea behind is to try to chose Keys Fhz as XO and simple as possible when possible like LR2 slope for instance)
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I'm using this driver in a 3-way configuration, however full active class D and with dsp crossover.
Crossover points are acoustic LR4 at 400 and 2,5k. Tweeter is a 1 1/8" softdome with waveguide.
This was my first diy speaker project, inspired by atc scm 150 and guzauski-swist gs 3 a. i tried to resemble the atc mid by 3d printing a waveguide in the shape of the one atc's using.
The waveguide did result in a gain of ~5dB, however not down to 400, it starts to rise at 500 and reaches 5dB at 800.
but it still performs very well crossed at 400 LR4, but that's about the lowest you should go until thd becomes problematic.
LR2 will be a different story, 800 would work perfectly fine based on my observations. However I wouln't go much higher than 5k as it starts to beam at around ~3k.
Like i said, this is my first build, but it surpassed my expectations by far.
Probably won't build/buy another speaker for a long time.
But I'm not an audiophile nerd, I use this speaker for mastering music.
Very honest, low thd mids. Would absolutely recommend this driver when used within its usable range.
Crossover points are acoustic LR4 at 400 and 2,5k. Tweeter is a 1 1/8" softdome with waveguide.
This was my first diy speaker project, inspired by atc scm 150 and guzauski-swist gs 3 a. i tried to resemble the atc mid by 3d printing a waveguide in the shape of the one atc's using.
The waveguide did result in a gain of ~5dB, however not down to 400, it starts to rise at 500 and reaches 5dB at 800.
but it still performs very well crossed at 400 LR4, but that's about the lowest you should go until thd becomes problematic.
LR2 will be a different story, 800 would work perfectly fine based on my observations. However I wouln't go much higher than 5k as it starts to beam at around ~3k.
Like i said, this is my first build, but it surpassed my expectations by far.
Probably won't build/buy another speaker for a long time.
But I'm not an audiophile nerd, I use this speaker for mastering music.
Very honest, low thd mids. Would absolutely recommend this driver when used within its usable range.
The 75-1558SE is a very nice driver, but hard to find now and/or very expensive. I would not cross any higher than 3.5kHz because of the size of the driver - the center to center distance with the tweeter limits how high you can cross otherwise your will get a rough power response - a big droop at the crossover point as you move off axis.
I would definitely not cross an 8" driver at 8kHz unless you are crossing to a horn/waveguide tweeter with an 8" mouth. Even if you had a tweeter with a similar off axis response, the speaker would only have top end extension through a very narrow listening angle and at least a few meters away. If you mate it with a tweeter with a wider beam width then your power response will droop hard up to 8kHz and then spike up again as the tweeter takes over. In my opinion if your tweeter can't handle lower than 8k it would be better in that case just to run the 8" all the way up to 20kHz and not have a tweeter.
A 3" cone midrange might be a better solution. You'll be able to get the CTC distance down enough to cross at maybe 4.5-5kHz without major issues. Some of the better Fountek (FR88EX) and Tang Band 3" (W3-2141) can comfortably do 400Hz LR4
If you want to stick with a dome mid then the RS52AN-8 can do 600Hz LR4. Up top I would not go higher than 3.5kHz due to CTC and distortion products exciting the 13kHz dome breakup node. The flange is smaller than most 2" dome mids which allows a good CTC with a full size tweeter.
There's also the DC50FA-8. The bottom end is clean - 500Hz LR4 no problem. It's not as clean in non-linear distortion or frequency response through 1-3kHz compared to the RS52 or the better 3" cones but does not have any serious distortion problems that would limit the upper crossover point. What does limit the crossover point is that the flange is quite large, so that in my opinion sets a limit of no higher than 3.5kHz.
I would definitely not cross an 8" driver at 8kHz unless you are crossing to a horn/waveguide tweeter with an 8" mouth. Even if you had a tweeter with a similar off axis response, the speaker would only have top end extension through a very narrow listening angle and at least a few meters away. If you mate it with a tweeter with a wider beam width then your power response will droop hard up to 8kHz and then spike up again as the tweeter takes over. In my opinion if your tweeter can't handle lower than 8k it would be better in that case just to run the 8" all the way up to 20kHz and not have a tweeter.
A 3" cone midrange might be a better solution. You'll be able to get the CTC distance down enough to cross at maybe 4.5-5kHz without major issues. Some of the better Fountek (FR88EX) and Tang Band 3" (W3-2141) can comfortably do 400Hz LR4
If you want to stick with a dome mid then the RS52AN-8 can do 600Hz LR4. Up top I would not go higher than 3.5kHz due to CTC and distortion products exciting the 13kHz dome breakup node. The flange is smaller than most 2" dome mids which allows a good CTC with a full size tweeter.
There's also the DC50FA-8. The bottom end is clean - 500Hz LR4 no problem. It's not as clean in non-linear distortion or frequency response through 1-3kHz compared to the RS52 or the better 3" cones but does not have any serious distortion problems that would limit the upper crossover point. What does limit the crossover point is that the flange is quite large, so that in my opinion sets a limit of no higher than 3.5kHz.
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Thank you for your inputt.
According to you, does the off axis pattern is not good after 2.5k Hz (too large dome!)? Did you try to Xoed it higher (> 5 k or around 8K Hz ?) ?
According to you, does the off axis pattern is not good after 2.5k Hz (too large dome!)? Did you try to Xoed it higher (> 5 k or around 8K Hz ?) ?
The problem is the distance with the tweeter. If you have a driver that has a really large flange/frame then you physically can't place your tweeter as close to the dome as you can with a driver that has a smaller frame.
The 75-1558SE has a 140mm flange. Therefore if you pair it with a standard 104mm flange tweeter the closest you can place the domes together is half of 140mm plus half of 104mm = 122mm (CTC distance). As you move off axis vertically, one speaker becomes closer to the listener than the other. At some point the difference will cause cancellation between the speakers due to being 1/2 wavelength or 180 degrees out of phase. At 3.5kHz, cancellation for drivers with a 122mm CTC occurs at 24°
This is because
speed of sound = 345m/s
wavelength = 345m/3500Hz = 9.9cm -> half wavelength = 4.95cm
sin(24°)*122mm = 4.96cm
If you increase the crossover point to 5kHz:
wavelength = 345m/5000Hz = 6.9cm -> half wavelength = 3.45cm
sin(16.4°)*122mm = 3.45cm
So cancellation occurs at an even smaller angle off axis. Of course if you run a 3.5kHz crossover then it doesn't matter so much that the drivers are out of phase at 5kHz when you are 16.4 degrees off axis because onen driver is already heavily rolled off by the crossover. The worst case is when the cancellation occurs at the crossover frequency.
The smaller the CTC distance then the frequency response is free of cancellation at a given frequency through a wider listening angle.
If you use a 3" cone midrange then the frame is only about 90mm, allowing you to place the tweeter 25mm closer which means you can use a higher crossover point, or have a better power response.
The 75-1558SE has a 140mm flange. Therefore if you pair it with a standard 104mm flange tweeter the closest you can place the domes together is half of 140mm plus half of 104mm = 122mm (CTC distance). As you move off axis vertically, one speaker becomes closer to the listener than the other. At some point the difference will cause cancellation between the speakers due to being 1/2 wavelength or 180 degrees out of phase. At 3.5kHz, cancellation for drivers with a 122mm CTC occurs at 24°
This is because
speed of sound = 345m/s
wavelength = 345m/3500Hz = 9.9cm -> half wavelength = 4.95cm
sin(24°)*122mm = 4.96cm
If you increase the crossover point to 5kHz:
wavelength = 345m/5000Hz = 6.9cm -> half wavelength = 3.45cm
sin(16.4°)*122mm = 3.45cm
So cancellation occurs at an even smaller angle off axis. Of course if you run a 3.5kHz crossover then it doesn't matter so much that the drivers are out of phase at 5kHz when you are 16.4 degrees off axis because onen driver is already heavily rolled off by the crossover. The worst case is when the cancellation occurs at the crossover frequency.
The smaller the CTC distance then the frequency response is free of cancellation at a given frequency through a wider listening angle.
If you use a 3" cone midrange then the frame is only about 90mm, allowing you to place the tweeter 25mm closer which means you can use a higher crossover point, or have a better power response.
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Thanks guys for the datas & inputs ! Ah yes I had not thinked to the fact than a horn wil even more enarge the CTC distance !😱
I didn't know Zaph tested it...
I didn't know Zaph tested it...
This is one of the best dome midranges ever made, as good as the old Dynaudio D52AF IMHO but with a wider frequency response. If it doesn't sound good, you should blame the designer or the implementation, not the driver.
The large flange presents some challenges, but you can get around that with the right tweeter and rear-mounting the dome in the baffle.
The large flange presents some challenges, but you can get around that with the right tweeter and rear-mounting the dome in the baffle.
I like domes, and would use domes again anytime.
If you need to cross upper range high, like you wrote 6000-8000, you can easily remove front plate of the rs52an, its just glued lightly, and cross as high, that's what I did.
Thanks for your input,
I just read as advised Zaph input I copy here for other readers :
Comments: This is a 3" textile dome midrange with very good performance on all fronts. Smooth response with only mild breakup peaking at 7kHz. With the clean distortion profile, how low you cross is limited only by how loud you need them to play. My initial estimate is 400 Hz LR4 or 700 Hz LR2. A well damped resonance will likely not need a conjugate circuit to flatten impedance. The flange is fairly large and in some cases a small cone mid may be a better choice. The high pass crossover point will be limited by center to center distance and off axis rolloff, I recommend no higher than 3kHz. Off axis response curves available. Tested June 2009
this is the off axis linked in the coment above !
I would like o benchmark it with the 4" ScanSpeak cone 10F (8 ohms) I have already and which was planned for foam Trynergy (but my skill ! lol)...
Problem being to horn them but still with a tweeter above ! 🙄 But putting a K-tube tweeter through a horn to solve the CtC distance ! I have no idea to improve their efficienty (90 dB w/m being a little low for my needs : would like more than 105 or 11o dB at max peak (with their buddy Distorsion) !
Was is the idea to have more efficienty in this Sony speaker or was is just for polar patern ? http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-na2es-loudspeaker#5mz92mhcGfhwhe9F.97
I just read as advised Zaph input I copy here for other readers :
Comments: This is a 3" textile dome midrange with very good performance on all fronts. Smooth response with only mild breakup peaking at 7kHz. With the clean distortion profile, how low you cross is limited only by how loud you need them to play. My initial estimate is 400 Hz LR4 or 700 Hz LR2. A well damped resonance will likely not need a conjugate circuit to flatten impedance. The flange is fairly large and in some cases a small cone mid may be a better choice. The high pass crossover point will be limited by center to center distance and off axis rolloff, I recommend no higher than 3kHz. Off axis response curves available. Tested June 2009
this is the off axis linked in the coment above !
I would like o benchmark it with the 4" ScanSpeak cone 10F (8 ohms) I have already and which was planned for foam Trynergy (but my skill ! lol)...
Problem being to horn them but still with a tweeter above ! 🙄 But putting a K-tube tweeter through a horn to solve the CtC distance ! I have no idea to improve their efficienty (90 dB w/m being a little low for my needs : would like more than 105 or 11o dB at max peak (with their buddy Distorsion) !
Was is the idea to have more efficienty in this Sony speaker or was is just for polar patern ? http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-na2es-loudspeaker#5mz92mhcGfhwhe9F.97
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Very strange inquiry because 2 very different animals, though from the same manufacturer. Are you a TB fan ?
A manufacturer i personally don't like very much, because it seems that a datasheet and a sales folder is more or less the same thing for them. You simply cannot trust their frequency response charts. They should better do the same as PHL, avoiding these charts in their datasheets, and let customers cross fingers based on reputation, and make their own measurements when bought the drivers.
Their catalogue is also so endlessly wide that i cannot believe all the stuff they sell can reliablely/consistantly produced. Not a manufacturer worth considering for me.😡
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Nah, the idea behind is I want to make Something wich is full range for the mid-treble to have Something 800/around 8000 more or less (despite the difficulty of ctc!) and a "little" efficienty like 95-96 dB w/m)!
It seems to me the two different size and typology can match it but with different polar patern (trade offs) ! the bicone being more efficient (was also i copy it in op) : the brand is about the good quality cost in relation to this goal (but not only : look at what i writted just above about the scanspeak cone ! )
I surmise the dome having an easier polar patern for XO ?? Dunno about the phase and lower driver integration (which is surely a cone driver -12" maybe!)!
If only I can afford an Atc DOME like I eat croissant, it could better for sure !
It seems to me the two different size and typology can match it but with different polar patern (trade offs) ! the bicone being more efficient (was also i copy it in op) : the brand is about the good quality cost in relation to this goal (but not only : look at what i writted just above about the scanspeak cone ! )
I surmise the dome having an easier polar patern for XO ?? Dunno about the phase and lower driver integration (which is surely a cone driver -12" maybe!)!
If only I can afford an Atc DOME like I eat croissant, it could better for sure !
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Unfortunately 3" domes are few and far between. I like my D52AF domes quite well, excellent dynamics but HD not the best. The Dayton RS52 seems to be quite similar, but with the aluminum dome.
I would think the TB 3" is actually better than the D52 in terms of HD.
Dynaudio D52AF: http://www.gattiweb.com/images/dynaudio/d52af_data.pdf
Dayton RS52AN: http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/285-020--dayton-audio-rs52an-8-spec-sheet.pdf
You noticed that the TB mid is only available in quantity of 100 right at PE? $116 ea. That's a good chunk of change...
I would think the TB 3" is actually better than the D52 in terms of HD.
Dynaudio D52AF: http://www.gattiweb.com/images/dynaudio/d52af_data.pdf
Dayton RS52AN: http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/285-020--dayton-audio-rs52an-8-spec-sheet.pdf
You noticed that the TB mid is only available in quantity of 100 right at PE? $116 ea. That's a good chunk of change...
Hmm. 800-8k is a tough range to cover with a dome... I might reach for the Dayton R52 or a 2-3" cone. Haven't tried the Dayton, just from the specs it looks doable. Domes are more valued for their low mass and good CSD performance than for ease of use / polar response.
My old D52AF seems to be a copy of this Dayton model:
Dayton Audio DC50FA-8 Classic Series 2" Dome Midrange 8 Ohm - Midranges - Loudspeaker Drivers By Type - Loudspeaker Components
Though, for an upgrade i might rather go for these:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/morel-mdm55-2-textile-dome-midrange/
Or these:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/morel-em1308-elite-2-dome-midrange/
Btw, as far as i remember, Dynaudio crossed the D52 around 4-5khz. More than this i only can report Onken/Fostex freaks that cross around 8khz-10Khz and leave their super top octave mess affair unconnected when visited by Jean Hiraga reporting about the next examplary "haut rendement" set up. These things simply don't work...😀
Dayton Audio DC50FA-8 Classic Series 2" Dome Midrange 8 Ohm - Midranges - Loudspeaker Drivers By Type - Loudspeaker Components
Though, for an upgrade i might rather go for these:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/morel-mdm55-2-textile-dome-midrange/
Or these:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-2-midrange/morel-em1308-elite-2-dome-midrange/
Btw, as far as i remember, Dynaudio crossed the D52 around 4-5khz. More than this i only can report Onken/Fostex freaks that cross around 8khz-10Khz and leave their super top octave mess affair unconnected when visited by Jean Hiraga reporting about the next examplary "haut rendement" set up. These things simply don't work...😀
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