Someday I may get an Oppo, and see if some of my ideas for current conveyors that originated with EUVL's designs might make a difference. I don't doubt that Oppo has done a decent job with op amp based I-V circuits. It's more of a matter of exploring more logical ways to do the conversion, with circuits that start with a low input impedance, rather than achieving it with (only) global feedback.
In any case an Oppo ought to represent a performance improvement over the unspeakably trashy CD playback gear I use now. Whether I could hear it readily is another issue. I tend to have the opposite problem compared to many, a deep skepticism about the audibility of small things. This is particularly true with the electronics, as compared to loudspeakers and rooms and source material. Even when I want to hear a claimed difference, unless it is very obvious, with good level-matched comparisons I tend to be less than moved. But this doesn't deter me from auditioning and designing.
In any case an Oppo ought to represent a performance improvement over the unspeakably trashy CD playback gear I use now. Whether I could hear it readily is another issue. I tend to have the opposite problem compared to many, a deep skepticism about the audibility of small things. This is particularly true with the electronics, as compared to loudspeakers and rooms and source material. Even when I want to hear a claimed difference, unless it is very obvious, with good level-matched comparisons I tend to be less than moved. But this doesn't deter me from auditioning and designing.
Bill you MUST be joking. Almost everything he named is a noise source of varying degrees. Power quality, which is largely noise, has more affect on digital than anything else. Some of the things named aren't even about price point, just choice.
A power conditioner can be the difference between an MP3 ripped to a CD sounding just fine, and making you physically move away from the stereo without a single change in volume or settings. I've done it.
Higher resolution as far as I can tell is literally trying to displace noise (no formal explanation, yet). It helps some, but it's not the end all.
Haven't you guys noticed the best DAC's tend to have extremely low noise?
Fiddle with clocks, sampling rates, etc, all day... get some benefit. Cut the noise and get massive benefits.
I agree that power conditioners can make a real difference, but let's stick to digital just to keep things in order.
Bcarso, OPPO could have done better with their analog conversion. IF they had added a buffer like the LME 49600 to remove the load on the 862, they would have a better design, BUT the buffers cost $3 each in 1000's. Too expensive for cheap guys like SY. '-)
Bcarso, OPPO could have done better with their analog conversion. IF they had added a buffer like the LME 49600 to remove the load on the 862, they would have a better design, BUT the buffers cost $3 each in 1000's. Too expensive for cheap guys like SY. '-)
I've got an Oppo as well, rebuilt the power supply to no real difference. ESS sabre chip, better op amps, separate 3 terminal regulators for the analog stage.
But it sounds mediocre - lacking in detail, dynamics, bass drive, midrange lacks smoothness. I get bored with it, music is uninteresting . Yet i plug the Oppo's digital output into an external DAC with all discrete jfet analog stage, Jung regulators, Vishay bulk foil and Caddock resistors, servo output to get rid of coupling caps, and anything I play from 16/44 to 192/24 all sound better, i stay up too late not wanting to turn it off. The external Dac always sounds better, yet the Oppo measures just fine in all traditional aspects - so what do we not measure yet?
But it sounds mediocre - lacking in detail, dynamics, bass drive, midrange lacks smoothness. I get bored with it, music is uninteresting . Yet i plug the Oppo's digital output into an external DAC with all discrete jfet analog stage, Jung regulators, Vishay bulk foil and Caddock resistors, servo output to get rid of coupling caps, and anything I play from 16/44 to 192/24 all sound better, i stay up too late not wanting to turn it off. The external Dac always sounds better, yet the Oppo measures just fine in all traditional aspects - so what do we not measure yet?
That's funny. I didn't assume anyone here used it for their DAC with all this talk about digital... and the Oppo.
Possibly, critical bands of of our own hearing between 1 and 7 kHz?
That is a possible logical answer to your question in the context it's asked.
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. People will generally chose the technology that they think will give them the magic they want. At this point the die is cast and that choice will generally sound better. If you think 3 terminal regulators are evil, then they are evil. Nothing wrong with that, but quoting something between a precis of POOGE and a collection of audiophool lore does not suggest a focused approach on finding if there are real improvements to be had.
But given accurate and transparent components are also called uninteresting compared to some distortion fest in a frou frou case made of rare woods and machined by artisans in a monastery high in the mountains how do we differentiate between people not actually liking 'accurate and transparent', some artifact that causes boring sound and just the expectation that a $1000 universal player is just tooooo cheap to sound good?
I could be wrong but he might be referencing LM317's. They're not that great and absurdly common. Plus, shunt or? There's certainly a number of ways to regulate.
There are, but where is there a problem with their performance. For the analog stages a 7812 will do the job nicely when combined with 80dB PSRR and the layout of the decoupling becomes far more critical, to the point where glomming on a better performing reg will probably make things worse.
Horrific for some that the PCB is more critical than the name on the passives and type of reg tho...
Horrific for some that the PCB is more critical than the name on the passives and type of reg tho...
Yes who would be so stupid to use cheap $ 0.10 SMD resistors if you can have $ 2 Caddocks, right?
Yet, when Bruce Hofer of AP spoke to our AES section, and I pumped him on this, he was quite clear: the BEST resistors these days for stability, low noise, low T and V coefficient are .... drum roll ... thin film SMD, not smaller than 1206.
The new APx555 is full of them.
Whaddayamean lead connection method and copper/tin/mix metals and magnetics in the leads - there aren't any!
Jan
Yet, when Bruce Hofer of AP spoke to our AES section, and I pumped him on this, he was quite clear: the BEST resistors these days for stability, low noise, low T and V coefficient are .... drum roll ... thin film SMD, not smaller than 1206.
The new APx555 is full of them.
Whaddayamean lead connection method and copper/tin/mix metals and magnetics in the leads - there aren't any!
Jan
In other news 'Cat-flap' pendulum offers 7x improvement for grav-wave detectors ? The Register
I hope they have something rather than a press release for more funding. And still not a bybee in sight.
I hope they have something rather than a press release for more funding. And still not a bybee in sight.
John, in general I share your view of the CD format. However, there are many takes on that subject, and not all are expensive. As an example, take my NAD C 565 BEE I paid €400 for it (app. $420). For the outaly, I got a Wolferson DAC, a bundle of BB 2134 op amps and a commendably neat and well laid out PCB, with a rather large toroidal transformer (at a guess, it looks like a 100 VA model). The PSU is well filtered and seems to be capable of way more than it really has to deliver. But the key aspect is a commend button which allows me to select one of five filters.
Unfortunately, the manual mentions them only, but adds prescious little else by way of description. So I spent some time trying out various settings, and true enough, you CAN hear the differences except between Filter 1 and Filter 2 - for the life of me, I can't hear any difference myself. With the rest, you can hear small differences, which after a time become significant enough for you to notice them (say, two hours of listening). Nothing capital, to be sure, but it's there and can be heard.
For example, some older CDs, mostly compilations of once upon a time big hits, came alive with the player and setting Filter 1. Some newer releases, which may sound a bit shrill elsewhere, preferred the Filter 3 setting to bring it into tonal line. Other releases, like "War of the worlds" by Jeff Wayne sounded best at the Filter 4 setting. And so forth. While this may seem like a drag switching filters for every other CD, it really isn't, just press the button umtil you get what you want, takes just several seconds. But it does let you have the setting you hear as the best balanced across the audible spectrum.
Not that this is any new approach, soe models (like Marabtz 12) had similar settings like 15 or maybe 20 years ago, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody in its price class had them. To cut the long story short, it helped me realise that even the humble Red Book CD had much to offer, and I would imagine 24/192 format would sound even better (or should).
Since I am currently stretched to my limits in business terms, I had no time to measure anything, that has to wait until I get some time.
Unfortunately, the manual mentions them only, but adds prescious little else by way of description. So I spent some time trying out various settings, and true enough, you CAN hear the differences except between Filter 1 and Filter 2 - for the life of me, I can't hear any difference myself. With the rest, you can hear small differences, which after a time become significant enough for you to notice them (say, two hours of listening). Nothing capital, to be sure, but it's there and can be heard.
For example, some older CDs, mostly compilations of once upon a time big hits, came alive with the player and setting Filter 1. Some newer releases, which may sound a bit shrill elsewhere, preferred the Filter 3 setting to bring it into tonal line. Other releases, like "War of the worlds" by Jeff Wayne sounded best at the Filter 4 setting. And so forth. While this may seem like a drag switching filters for every other CD, it really isn't, just press the button umtil you get what you want, takes just several seconds. But it does let you have the setting you hear as the best balanced across the audible spectrum.
Not that this is any new approach, soe models (like Marabtz 12) had similar settings like 15 or maybe 20 years ago, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody in its price class had them. To cut the long story short, it helped me realise that even the humble Red Book CD had much to offer, and I would imagine 24/192 format would sound even better (or should).
Since I am currently stretched to my limits in business terms, I had no time to measure anything, that has to wait until I get some time.
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Marantz's actually smart engineers know how to get results without wasting money on components which don't actually result in better performance. Perhaps Oppo should look in that direction for advice rather than to people who can't engineer as well? Of course, that won't satisfy the peekers...
LF >60dB line and load reg for the LM317 + >100dB op-amp PSRR . . . means you have to be extraordinarily careless to get bad performance.
Line, load and regulator noise refered to the opamp inputs is for most audio applications in the nV range (wide band)
With a bit more effort on the LM317, you can get wideband noise to under 20 uV (decouple Vref pin per the app note)
The elephant in the room is indeed layout, sensible decoupling and so forth. And it is this that takes experience and a willingness to be prepared to negotiate a learning curve that may be years in the making.
I still have much to learn . . .
Line, load and regulator noise refered to the opamp inputs is for most audio applications in the nV range (wide band)
With a bit more effort on the LM317, you can get wideband noise to under 20 uV (decouple Vref pin per the app note)
The elephant in the room is indeed layout, sensible decoupling and so forth. And it is this that takes experience and a willingness to be prepared to negotiate a learning curve that may be years in the making.
I still have much to learn . . .
Marantz made a name for themselves in the nineties for being able to produce killer CD players. Looks like they have not lost their touch.
I had one of their lower end models for years, then upgraded to a Pioneer SACD/DVD player around 2006. I got an OPPO about 2 years ago and have the feeling it has a cleaner, more open sound than the Pioneer - but I've have not done an ABX test - just my feeling and probably a dose of expectation bias since it was not all that cheap.
Separately, I bought a $120 DAC made in China and was able to switch between it (fed from the TOSLINK output) and the Pioneer to do some comparative listening tests. I could hear no difference on standard CD. Now, it could be my system is so bad that its just not capable of resolving anything other than gross non-linearities. However, I think a more likely explanation is that digital is a very mature technology with almost all issues fully resolved. You will probably get noticeable differences with better filtering but I doubt improvements will arise from the use of metal foil Caddock resistors or Mundorf caps.
I had one of their lower end models for years, then upgraded to a Pioneer SACD/DVD player around 2006. I got an OPPO about 2 years ago and have the feeling it has a cleaner, more open sound than the Pioneer - but I've have not done an ABX test - just my feeling and probably a dose of expectation bias since it was not all that cheap.
Separately, I bought a $120 DAC made in China and was able to switch between it (fed from the TOSLINK output) and the Pioneer to do some comparative listening tests. I could hear no difference on standard CD. Now, it could be my system is so bad that its just not capable of resolving anything other than gross non-linearities. However, I think a more likely explanation is that digital is a very mature technology with almost all issues fully resolved. You will probably get noticeable differences with better filtering but I doubt improvements will arise from the use of metal foil Caddock resistors or Mundorf caps.
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