I think science has a little way to go before it can fully describe and accurately predict the behaviour of chaotic systems.
Currently their behaviour can only can only be predicted in terms of probabilities of certain outcomes. In the case of weather forecasts these outcomes are described in extremely broad terms with lots of 'wiggle room'.
Currently their behaviour can only can only be predicted in terms of probabilities of certain outcomes. In the case of weather forecasts these outcomes are described in extremely broad terms with lots of 'wiggle room'.
50AE, I do not think the others did a very good job of making their point. Let me give you a few facts and tell you a story and you tell me what you think.
The discussion of how we as humans perceive things has been settled with double blind tests. Double blind means that the person taking the test and anyone telling him to make the choice do not know what piece of equipment is being switched in. The test subject is given 10 or more chances to pick between two different items like line cords.
What these test show is that once a subject does not know that one line cord is $500 and the other one is $5 he can no longer pick the $500 cord. And in fact the laws of 50/50 chance come in to play. This test works with any part of the stereo system and when the test first came out some of the more vocal audio people with self-proclaimed super hearing were invited to take the test. It was a disaster for the audio community, no one could tell the difference between a $2000 component amplifier and a $100 integrated amp. So in true audiophile fashion the audio community quickly refused to take any more tests and declared that it was impossible to take the test with a switch in the signal path because their sensitive ears cannot take the awful sound that the switch introduces.
I actually saw this physiological effect in action. I went in to a high end stereo store looking for speakers. They had a listing room with a nice couch and a selector switch to cut in any of the speakers. The knob on the switch did not line up very well with the markings and the corresponding letters near the speakers were placed poorly. It was not easy to determine at first glance what you were listening to.
I was alone at first but then a whole family came in to listen. It was clear from looking at them that they had $$$. They stormed in like they owned the place and took over the listing test. I bit my lip and kept my mouth shut and thought I would wait for them to leave.
Well the test went something like this. First a speaker was selected by the leader of the clan. Then when he asked if they liked it there would be puzzled looks and one of them would ask what speaker they were listing to. The leader would look at the switch and point to the speaker. Having more money than brains, he could not figure out the correlation between the switch and the speakers. So he always picked the wrong one. I stifled a smile and I knew this was going to be fun.
The listening test went just as human psychology said it should. When they thought they were listening to an expensive speaker they all raved at how good it sounded. When it was a low cost speaker they said no.
As luck would have it, the cheapest speaker was next to one of the most expensive speakers. And as human physiology says, they picked the expensive speaker as the best sounding. The whole clan agreed they all sung the praises of the expensive speaker and were ready to buy. I did my best not to laugh out loud and said, excuse me the speaker you picked is this one and pointed to the El-cheap-oh that they liked the best. I showed them how to read the switch and what speaker it pointed to. There was a look of horror on their faces as they realized their expensive sophisticated tastes picked the cheapest speaker in the room.
After a bit of stunned silence one of them said switch between those two speakers again. They did another listing test with the expensive speaker called out each time, and guess what, on further deliberation the expensive speaker did sound the best and the cheap one sounded bad. I shook my head and walked out.
This effect is well known and that is why the stereo store prominently displays the price on the speakers. Obviously the expensive speakers sound best, right?
The discussion of how we as humans perceive things has been settled with double blind tests. Double blind means that the person taking the test and anyone telling him to make the choice do not know what piece of equipment is being switched in. The test subject is given 10 or more chances to pick between two different items like line cords.
What these test show is that once a subject does not know that one line cord is $500 and the other one is $5 he can no longer pick the $500 cord. And in fact the laws of 50/50 chance come in to play. This test works with any part of the stereo system and when the test first came out some of the more vocal audio people with self-proclaimed super hearing were invited to take the test. It was a disaster for the audio community, no one could tell the difference between a $2000 component amplifier and a $100 integrated amp. So in true audiophile fashion the audio community quickly refused to take any more tests and declared that it was impossible to take the test with a switch in the signal path because their sensitive ears cannot take the awful sound that the switch introduces.
I actually saw this physiological effect in action. I went in to a high end stereo store looking for speakers. They had a listing room with a nice couch and a selector switch to cut in any of the speakers. The knob on the switch did not line up very well with the markings and the corresponding letters near the speakers were placed poorly. It was not easy to determine at first glance what you were listening to.
I was alone at first but then a whole family came in to listen. It was clear from looking at them that they had $$$. They stormed in like they owned the place and took over the listing test. I bit my lip and kept my mouth shut and thought I would wait for them to leave.
Well the test went something like this. First a speaker was selected by the leader of the clan. Then when he asked if they liked it there would be puzzled looks and one of them would ask what speaker they were listing to. The leader would look at the switch and point to the speaker. Having more money than brains, he could not figure out the correlation between the switch and the speakers. So he always picked the wrong one. I stifled a smile and I knew this was going to be fun.
The listening test went just as human psychology said it should. When they thought they were listening to an expensive speaker they all raved at how good it sounded. When it was a low cost speaker they said no.
As luck would have it, the cheapest speaker was next to one of the most expensive speakers. And as human physiology says, they picked the expensive speaker as the best sounding. The whole clan agreed they all sung the praises of the expensive speaker and were ready to buy. I did my best not to laugh out loud and said, excuse me the speaker you picked is this one and pointed to the El-cheap-oh that they liked the best. I showed them how to read the switch and what speaker it pointed to. There was a look of horror on their faces as they realized their expensive sophisticated tastes picked the cheapest speaker in the room.
After a bit of stunned silence one of them said switch between those two speakers again. They did another listing test with the expensive speaker called out each time, and guess what, on further deliberation the expensive speaker did sound the best and the cheap one sounded bad. I shook my head and walked out.
This effect is well known and that is why the stereo store prominently displays the price on the speakers. Obviously the expensive speakers sound best, right?
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Last night, after polishing my power cables I was playing my wife's favourite Lawrence Welk cd, when she ran in from the kitchen with a stunned look on her face exclaiming 'darling ...........
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Powerbob,
Thank you for providing this rich, detailed story. Actually it is teaching for everyone and I will tell from my point of view where audio people do big mistakes:
1. Never, never, please never judge components by cost. Please don't! Let me share you my personal experience. Although I haven't traveled around world much to visit Hi-fi shows, every year I visit our local one, where national and international companies claim they manufacture high-end audio equipment and demonstrate it. The systems range from to $$$$ to $$$$$$ prices. I cannot describe how horrible most of them sound. Just HORRIBLE. And it's always the same every year.
Some of these companies manufacture so shameful snake oil it's hard to describe. They literally sell devices made from junk parts, claiming them to be the highest of all end and use cheap tricks as nice looking women around the system or super cool looking design and commercials to get your attention. I HAVE seen it with my own eyes and believe me, it hurts. It is so ugly it's beyond my possibilities to describe it.
The world is full of the so called "snake oil". So always listen to the sound of a component first before thinking of its price and worst - before buying it.
Another small example I will gladly share is. When we, local audiophiles meet together to listen at someone's home audio system, we enjoy bringing personal equipment with us for trial, listen together and share our opinions. Interconnect cables, power cables, room tuning accessories, power plugs, sources, , terminals, you name it. They can be DIY or commercial. We plug/put it and listen, but only mention the price at the end. Sometimes the component sounds better, sometimes worse. This way we are learning experience that is precious, especially when it comes WHAT to buy and to do not.
2. As mentioned in 1, the audio commercial world is full of shockingly bad sounding systems. I bet most people on this forum don't have the slightest idea how a true hi-end system sounds, but I'm not blaming them for this. The commercial sector is full of mediocre equipment that pretends for hi-end qualities. How many of you have experienced the following:
-a soundstage depth that gives you the impression of a realism, as if the saxofonist blows two meters infront of you, while the piano notes feel the ambient space?
-a coherency and presence that makes the sax sound like if it's your room?
-an emotion that stops you from thinking about particulars.. lows, highs, details? An emotion that lets only the music flow, pure and intimate as it is and let you plunge in it, as if the performance is in your room? And then you suddenly loose the sense of time and space?
-a sense of rhythm and pace that makes your heart and passion resonate with music?
-on some electronic music recordings, a soundstage that goes beyond 180 degrees, as if there is a 5.1 audio system, but in reality it is just stereo?
Or I am talking BS?
So Powerbob,
Because of your nicely written story and your correct attitude that so few people have in modern times, I would really enjoy of offering you a moment of experience, where you can sit in front of such a system and experience the emotions I mentioned above. And then I will be able to demonstrate you how a... for example power cord can RUIN your emotion or.. make it better? Very sadly we have different regionalities, but if you ever visit Eastern Europe, I will gladly offer you this experience. Of course if you wish to accept it.
And I am not a vendor. Be my guest.
I am a part of an audio community with very nice, civilized and intelligent people where I'm very happy to be and thankful to be. These people are much older and wiser than I am and do not spend time on forums and internet. But I do and maybe I am one naive fool who tries to give the "red pill" to various people. I just understood I am wrong. It doesn't work so simply like that. It reminds me of a favorite quote from the "red pill movie" I would like to share:
"Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
Although the movie is fictional, I believe this quote describes very well the world we are living in.
Right now, I will act like the wiser older goats of our audio community by cutting my forum time and invest it in something more productive. We always learn from our mistakes. Don't expect my participation in this topic anymore.
Best regards,
Alexander
Thank you for providing this rich, detailed story. Actually it is teaching for everyone and I will tell from my point of view where audio people do big mistakes:
1. Never, never, please never judge components by cost. Please don't! Let me share you my personal experience. Although I haven't traveled around world much to visit Hi-fi shows, every year I visit our local one, where national and international companies claim they manufacture high-end audio equipment and demonstrate it. The systems range from to $$$$ to $$$$$$ prices. I cannot describe how horrible most of them sound. Just HORRIBLE. And it's always the same every year.
Some of these companies manufacture so shameful snake oil it's hard to describe. They literally sell devices made from junk parts, claiming them to be the highest of all end and use cheap tricks as nice looking women around the system or super cool looking design and commercials to get your attention. I HAVE seen it with my own eyes and believe me, it hurts. It is so ugly it's beyond my possibilities to describe it.
The world is full of the so called "snake oil". So always listen to the sound of a component first before thinking of its price and worst - before buying it.
Another small example I will gladly share is. When we, local audiophiles meet together to listen at someone's home audio system, we enjoy bringing personal equipment with us for trial, listen together and share our opinions. Interconnect cables, power cables, room tuning accessories, power plugs, sources, , terminals, you name it. They can be DIY or commercial. We plug/put it and listen, but only mention the price at the end. Sometimes the component sounds better, sometimes worse. This way we are learning experience that is precious, especially when it comes WHAT to buy and to do not.
2. As mentioned in 1, the audio commercial world is full of shockingly bad sounding systems. I bet most people on this forum don't have the slightest idea how a true hi-end system sounds, but I'm not blaming them for this. The commercial sector is full of mediocre equipment that pretends for hi-end qualities. How many of you have experienced the following:
-a soundstage depth that gives you the impression of a realism, as if the saxofonist blows two meters infront of you, while the piano notes feel the ambient space?
-a coherency and presence that makes the sax sound like if it's your room?
-an emotion that stops you from thinking about particulars.. lows, highs, details? An emotion that lets only the music flow, pure and intimate as it is and let you plunge in it, as if the performance is in your room? And then you suddenly loose the sense of time and space?
-a sense of rhythm and pace that makes your heart and passion resonate with music?
-on some electronic music recordings, a soundstage that goes beyond 180 degrees, as if there is a 5.1 audio system, but in reality it is just stereo?
Or I am talking BS?
So Powerbob,
Because of your nicely written story and your correct attitude that so few people have in modern times, I would really enjoy of offering you a moment of experience, where you can sit in front of such a system and experience the emotions I mentioned above. And then I will be able to demonstrate you how a... for example power cord can RUIN your emotion or.. make it better? Very sadly we have different regionalities, but if you ever visit Eastern Europe, I will gladly offer you this experience. Of course if you wish to accept it.
And I am not a vendor. Be my guest.
I am a part of an audio community with very nice, civilized and intelligent people where I'm very happy to be and thankful to be. These people are much older and wiser than I am and do not spend time on forums and internet. But I do and maybe I am one naive fool who tries to give the "red pill" to various people. I just understood I am wrong. It doesn't work so simply like that. It reminds me of a favorite quote from the "red pill movie" I would like to share:
"Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
Although the movie is fictional, I believe this quote describes very well the world we are living in.
Right now, I will act like the wiser older goats of our audio community by cutting my forum time and invest it in something more productive. We always learn from our mistakes. Don't expect my participation in this topic anymore.
Best regards,
Alexander
AE50, thank you for the nice reply and invitation to stop over. If i ever get rich i may take you up on it. BTW we have a $500 million dollar lottery drawing tonight i think i will go buy a ticket.
Oh, one last tip. Those systems you listened to that sound so bad are not really that bad. It is the room acoustics and or the speakers. After all, how good of a listening room can each vendor set up at a show.
See you.
Oh, one last tip. Those systems you listened to that sound so bad are not really that bad. It is the room acoustics and or the speakers. After all, how good of a listening room can each vendor set up at a show.
See you.
Gasp!
I knew reality was going to strike this thread sooner or later. Thank goodness, I will sleep better tonight. Thank you.
I worked in a stereo store in the early 70's. This type of sales presentation was used back then too. Our store was next to the University of Miami in Florida. There is so much $$$$ in that school that we called it the University of Money.
Note, the sales floor and sales techniques are not always slanted to the highest price stuff. It is usually aimed at selling the stuff with the highest profit + sales commission. Often there was a commission bonus attached to the stuff that isn't selling, or was overstocked. This is really prevalent in chain stores, like ours was. We really pushed AR, because they were owned by Teledyne, as was the store chain. Not terribly bad stuff though. The speakers were inefficient, and their amp could blow up any of their speakers if you cranked it.....what college kid isn't going to crank it?
I have a strong exception to this rule. I look first at the price, then immediately rule out anything that is beyond my budget, and try to objectively consider the rest. Often you must banish the salesperson from the room to get away with this technique.
About 15 years ago I went to all of the local "big box" music stores several times in search of a pair of studio monitors. The "home recording" industry was in it's infancy and rapidly changing. The larger music stores had mini studios for trying before buying, and they rotated new equipment through those rooms often.
At that time I was experimenting with an early PC based studio (16/44). My daughter played percussion in the high school band and there was always someone in our house playing some kind of instrument, often a bunch of people, since we had a drum set, two keyboards, and some guitars and amps for them to play with. My focus was recording drums, since at the time (and still) it is the hardest thing to get right, especially on a budget.
I walked into their studios with several commercial CD's and some drum tracks that I had recorded myself. I must have walked in and out of those places several times over a few week period, two out of three stores were pushing some high priced Genelecs that I didn't even like. Depending on who was there, I may not have even got to play my own CD's.
I walked into Sam Ash one night, and I got a lucky break. They were running a sale to coincide with all the new stuff trickling in from the latest NAMM show. On that same night they were having some king of guitar contest, so the crowd and the sales people were in the guitar area.
Their studio was empty, so I got to sit down and play CD's....for like 2 hours. I left with a pair of Yamaha NS-10M Studio (not the same as NS-10's) speakers for $300. They were the second lowest priced units in the store. They are still on the corners of my studio desk today.
Note, the sales floor and sales techniques are not always slanted to the highest price stuff. It is usually aimed at selling the stuff with the highest profit + sales commission. Often there was a commission bonus attached to the stuff that isn't selling, or was overstocked. This is really prevalent in chain stores, like ours was. We really pushed AR, because they were owned by Teledyne, as was the store chain. Not terribly bad stuff though. The speakers were inefficient, and their amp could blow up any of their speakers if you cranked it.....what college kid isn't going to crank it?
.
I have a strong exception to this rule. I look first at the price, then immediately rule out anything that is beyond my budget, and try to objectively consider the rest. Often you must banish the salesperson from the room to get away with this technique.
About 15 years ago I went to all of the local "big box" music stores several times in search of a pair of studio monitors. The "home recording" industry was in it's infancy and rapidly changing. The larger music stores had mini studios for trying before buying, and they rotated new equipment through those rooms often.
At that time I was experimenting with an early PC based studio (16/44). My daughter played percussion in the high school band and there was always someone in our house playing some kind of instrument, often a bunch of people, since we had a drum set, two keyboards, and some guitars and amps for them to play with. My focus was recording drums, since at the time (and still) it is the hardest thing to get right, especially on a budget.
I walked into their studios with several commercial CD's and some drum tracks that I had recorded myself. I must have walked in and out of those places several times over a few week period, two out of three stores were pushing some high priced Genelecs that I didn't even like. Depending on who was there, I may not have even got to play my own CD's.
I walked into Sam Ash one night, and I got a lucky break. They were running a sale to coincide with all the new stuff trickling in from the latest NAMM show. On that same night they were having some king of guitar contest, so the crowd and the sales people were in the guitar area.
Their studio was empty, so I got to sit down and play CD's....for like 2 hours. I left with a pair of Yamaha NS-10M Studio (not the same as NS-10's) speakers for $300. They were the second lowest priced units in the store. They are still on the corners of my studio desk today.
I forgot to mention, the power cords on my audio equipment come from an old computer. My speaker wire came from Walmart (12 gauge), and my interconnects came from Radio Shack (the decent ones with good connectors).
IF the equipment is properly designed, these things shouldn't matter.
Does the power cord on YOUR system matter?
Try plugging an electric drill, or other appliance that contains a motor with a commutator and brushes, into the SAME ELECTRICAL OUTLET as your stereo system. Pull the trigger on the drill.
Do you hear anything in the speakers? If so, fix the amp, preamp, or whatever is causing you to hear it.
If not, then the power cable will not matter provided it is big enough to operate the equipment without voltage drop.
IF the equipment is properly designed, these things shouldn't matter.
Does the power cord on YOUR system matter?
Try plugging an electric drill, or other appliance that contains a motor with a commutator and brushes, into the SAME ELECTRICAL OUTLET as your stereo system. Pull the trigger on the drill.
Do you hear anything in the speakers? If so, fix the amp, preamp, or whatever is causing you to hear it.
If not, then the power cable will not matter provided it is big enough to operate the equipment without voltage drop.
🙁
Well said! But true believers will continue to support the megabuck power cord brigade. Truly sad. 🙁
Mike
Well said! But true believers will continue to support the megabuck power cord brigade. Truly sad. 🙁
Mike
Power cords won't matter much if you listen in a lo-fi room. 😀
So many people here (this forum, this thread) post photos of their systems in rooms that look like they have horrible acoustics. Parallel hard walls, large glass surfaces,tile, hard floors, sparse furnishing and so on.
I don't get it.
So many people here (this forum, this thread) post photos of their systems in rooms that look like they have horrible acoustics. Parallel hard walls, large glass surfaces,tile, hard floors, sparse furnishing and so on.
I don't get it.
This is your point of view of horrible acoustics. There are different ways to tweak audio rooms, different than inserting absorbing panels, bass traps, soft furnishing and so on. This is a power cord thread, but if you are curious how we use to tweak room acoustics in our local audio community, PM me.
I know at least two well respected and smart electrical engineers that have more money in their cables than I have in my entire system. Both have plenty of money, and the rest of their systems were $$$$, so if that's where they want to spend it.......
I have taken some of my amps, and even breadboards to one of their houses and compared them to some of their $$$ amps, with favorable results.....Of course the faithful would be quick to point out the cables being used 🙂
Each is entitled to their own opinion. I looked at the pictures of 50AE's system and I see what appears to be an SE amp based on a TV sweep tube with damper tube rectifiers. It does use some impressive looking transformers, and that is where someone needs to spend the majority of their HiFi budget.
Am I really listening to a mid-fi system? Well, I really don't care what some call it, it fulfills my needs. There are however plenty of builders who would dispute that term.
Attachments
While it has nice aesthetics, I cannot give a comment on the sound, because I haven't listened to it.
By the way, the power cords I see in your pics don't look exactly like ordinary computer grade.
If you lived closer to my region... I am tempted to send you a piece of my DIY power cables, just for your personal trial. Just to hear your personal opinion what you'll hear.
By the way, the power cords I see in your pics don't look exactly like ordinary computer grade.
If you lived closer to my region... I am tempted to send you a piece of my DIY power cables, just for your personal trial. Just to hear your personal opinion what you'll hear.
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Since you're not and what Arny posted is demonstrably false you nothing to worry about. Except maybe the Lowthers (?), they risk putting you under suspicion with this crowd. Nice kit BTW.
A cat4 cable will do 16Mbits. A cat6 will do 1Gbit. If your network is 1Mbit the cat6 is a complete waste. Like these ridiculous power cables. Like so many of these audiophools, you use a sledge hammer to pound in a finishing nail.
Other nonsense in this thread: the last meter of power cord needs shielding while the mile of cable before dosnt have any. Use a filter at the power input to the device.
The cord has to big enough for the dynamics. I didn't know breakers could tell the difference.
Don't have the time to waste on anymore because the religious zealots aren't going to give up there faith no matter how much truth you try to teach them.
Other nonsense in this thread: the last meter of power cord needs shielding while the mile of cable before dosnt have any. Use a filter at the power input to the device.
The cord has to big enough for the dynamics. I didn't know breakers could tell the difference.
Don't have the time to waste on anymore because the religious zealots aren't going to give up there faith no matter how much truth you try to teach them.
Wanna speculate about what happened when I caught my kids doing what they were told not to, and they said: "But all the kids are doing it"?
See the post where the issue of the purported falseness of my statement (which ever which one?) was brought up for my information and comment?
I didn't. Does it exist?
Looks like we are in a world where statements become "demonstrably false" only because someone needs it to be false. No evidence created or needed. That's apparently good enough for this poster. You got to wonder if he notices that there are other people on this forum...
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Maybe I wasn't clear. That fancy stuff isn't mine. It belongs to one of the engineers that buys the cables that were shown in the pictures. There were two of my amps and one breadboard prototype of mine in those pictures.....My stuff is all DIY and I use computer grade power cords to power it all.
Who am I to tell a grown man how to spend HIS money. If he wants to spend $$$$ for a line cord, I'll let him. I know he spent "about $10K" for those speakers....used.
I have recently moved, and my lab / listening room / recording studio is being built in a large rectangular concrete basement. My "stereo" today consists of a $20 "digital amplifier" connected between my computer and the Yamaha NS-10M Studio's. There is no point in hooking up all the good stuff until I can do something about the acoustics.
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