I'm building a 5e3 based on the stock fender schematic. My goal is to get the sweetest clean sound possible without really modifying the original design of the amp. People seem to have conflicting reports of how much clean headroom this design has, and I'm guessing that is because there are so many choices of what parts to use... What has been your experience in choosing parts?
If you are worried about headroom this is not the amp for you. Period. My experience is it is more guitar dependent than parts dependant. Strats can have some clean sounds...Gibsons almost none. But nothing is gonna make a 5e3 loud and clean...it's barely loud enough to play with a drummer when dirty. Bigger power caps and different coupling values can help but it's more about changing the flabbiness or sag in the way it reacts. Not necessarily headroom. There are, of course, circuit mods and hinge to increase headroom but that is a different discussion. I think if you want headroom you will be disappointed...if you want cleans at band volume you will be really disappointed. If you want to rock out at home at not insane levels to Neil young or Who's Next type tones you will be in heaven.
I hear many reports of old jazz guitarists using these amps. That's what I'm trying to do. Would you say all of that speculation was wrong?
That was a different time and volume level. I think it's possible but only at bedroom volumes perhaps fingerpicked. I think they were using what they had at the time....volumes were a lot lower than today and there were no big, clean amps. Personally, a 5e3 would not be my choice for jazz unless it was some kind of really rootsy, bluesy variety or fusion.
If you are set on the 5e3 then an efficient speaker like a alnico blue will help.
Wattage can be a poor indicator of cleanliness or headroom. A 15 watt ac15 or 20 watt deluxe reverb is so much louder and cleaner than a 5e3 it's not even close. I can make my 5e3 break up at almost any volume with my Gretch hollow body and a pick. Think about the famous 5e3 tones...Neil young, zz top, Larry Carlton. Big, layered, crunchy overdrive. That is what it sounds like at anything other than bedroom levels.
If you are set on the 5e3 then an efficient speaker like a alnico blue will help.
Wattage can be a poor indicator of cleanliness or headroom. A 15 watt ac15 or 20 watt deluxe reverb is so much louder and cleaner than a 5e3 it's not even close. I can make my 5e3 break up at almost any volume with my Gretch hollow body and a pick. Think about the famous 5e3 tones...Neil young, zz top, Larry Carlton. Big, layered, crunchy overdrive. That is what it sounds like at anything other than bedroom levels.
On the other hand, the 5e3 is a great first build and fun. This is what I think a 5e3 sounds like:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1AOlkabwo
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1AOlkabwo
https://robrobinette.com/5e3_Modifications.htm#6L6_Upgrade
I did the 3 way switched feedback mod which really cleans it up
I did the 3 way switched feedback mod which really cleans it up
I noticed that the build in the video you posted was a 20w version of the amp, which he said gives it more headroom and bass response. How is the extra 5w typically achieved?
Iam not sure. I see a solid state rectifier though. I would look at tweed bandmaster and pro too. A little more headroom. Weber sells a deluxe kit with twice the tubes and wattage. I would like that. Also, there are some "pro" deluxe kits out there with 6l6 tubes.
Personally, I use a 5e3 and ac15 at home but almost always use the ac15 when playing with a drummer. And I always play dirty and through a p90 at special. At home, I play the 5e3 a lot with a Gretch and fenders.
Personally, I use a 5e3 and ac15 at home but almost always use the ac15 when playing with a drummer. And I always play dirty and through a p90 at special. At home, I play the 5e3 a lot with a Gretch and fenders.
To answer your original question, parts selection is not much of an issue. You will hear discussions over whether to prefer carbon composition resistors versus carbon film versus metal film, but really, any differences will be subtle nuance, not a change in headroom. Same with arguments over yellow Mallorys versus "Orange Drops" versus whatever. Again subtle nuance if anything, not headroom.
The single thing having the most effect on the tone of an amp is the speaker.
Transformers a lot less so. Pots are notorious for poor tolerance, so when I hear that someone thinks the Allen Bradley pots sound different from the CTS pots, I suspect the difference is more a matter of difference in value than brand. A "250k" pot could measure anywhere from 200k to 300k and be quite normal.
The single thing having the most effect on the tone of an amp is the speaker.
Transformers a lot less so. Pots are notorious for poor tolerance, so when I hear that someone thinks the Allen Bradley pots sound different from the CTS pots, I suspect the difference is more a matter of difference in value than brand. A "250k" pot could measure anywhere from 200k to 300k and be quite normal.
What Enzo said. Also, headroom is kind of subjective. My issue with 5e3's is that I love the tone but they are just just not loud enough at the crunch level I like. I like them for home use (I actually use an attenuator at home sometimes). So for me, that's a lack of headroom when playing with a drummer or other instruments. For other people it might be more than loud enough. But if you are looking for CLEAN headroom, it has very little. Probably the 5e3 and 18 watt marshall have some of least clean headroom of any amp..."Spongy" is the word I would use.
My issue with most blackface-era fenders is too much headroom...I can't get them to break up enough at the volume I want. Vox AC15 is just about perfect. I am guessing a tweed bandmaster would be about perfect too. The transition between clean and dirty is right around where I usually like to set my amps. If you like this...the dynamic area where playing hard gets crunch and dirt and playing soft is clean you will like the 5e3 (if you don't use it with a loud band). If you need more headroom than that I would look at something else.
My issue with most blackface-era fenders is too much headroom...I can't get them to break up enough at the volume I want. Vox AC15 is just about perfect. I am guessing a tweed bandmaster would be about perfect too. The transition between clean and dirty is right around where I usually like to set my amps. If you like this...the dynamic area where playing hard gets crunch and dirt and playing soft is clean you will like the 5e3 (if you don't use it with a loud band). If you need more headroom than that I would look at something else.
If I were to use a more powerful transformer, and perhaps different power tubes such as 6L6... What components (resistors, caps etc) would I need to change to accomodate this change?
Second part of the question: If I use a more powerful transformer while keeping the same tubes, and same everything else, what happens to the sound?
Second part of the question: If I use a more powerful transformer while keeping the same tubes, and same everything else, what happens to the sound?
Let me revamp that question. Does anyone have any information about upgrading the 5e3 power rating to 20w or so? Including instructions, or experiences... what did it do for you?
I built myself a 5E3 and it is plenty loud for a band, if you don't want it to distort keep the volume low, it doesn't really get much louder past 3-4 just dirtier. In fact i have been using a Vibro Champ which is 5 watts and 8 inch speaker in a band and it's plenty loud. If you gig just mic it.
Enzo brings up a great point about speakers. Get an efficient speaker like the Cannabis Rex and you will have plenty of clean headroom. That speaker will get you the same results as doubling your power!
Enzo brings up a great point about speakers. Get an efficient speaker like the Cannabis Rex and you will have plenty of clean headroom. That speaker will get you the same results as doubling your power!
If everything else is equal, if you double the output power, it only gets 3 decibels louder. Not enough to bother with.
There is a lot of info out there on the web for 6l6 5e3s. Google it, I don't have any first hand experience. But...6l6s sound different. Tighter, less compressed I think.
A larger transformer will sound tighter, less saggy. Most people like the 5e3 because it sounds loose. If you don't like what you hear on the web videos from 5e3 circuits I don't think you should start with a 5e3. It's just as easy to do a bandmaster or pro or low powered twin or whatever. The Weber "double" 5e3 kit is nice because it lets you switch between low power and double. I'd wish I had built that instead. Victoria also has some audio clips on their site you might want to check out.
Hey is this tread alive?
It's all about the speaker when you talk headroom with the 5e3!
6L6 give you a more fuller tone, and a little more power. The 6v6 is more midrange and crisp...
I'm gigging with 6L6 // Celestion G12h but record with 6V6 // Weber 12a125a.
Love both 🙂
Cheers Jan
It's all about the speaker when you talk headroom with the 5e3!
6L6 give you a more fuller tone, and a little more power. The 6v6 is more midrange and crisp...
I'm gigging with 6L6 // Celestion G12h but record with 6V6 // Weber 12a125a.
Love both 🙂
Cheers Jan
5E3
Leo Fender was disappointed with the 5E3 because it wasn't clean at high volumes. It was one of the loudest amps of the time, though. The reason people like it now is exactly why Leo didn't like it - it distorts at high volumes.
You can hear what an accurate reproduction of the 5E3 circuit sounds like with both volumes at "4" at my website, here:
(scroll down to the bottom to hear the sound clip). There is some distortion even at that level; as a matter of fact, "4" is where the amp starts to break up.
Clean-ish headroom is available, but there is not much "room" in that headroom.
Best Regards,
e
Leo Fender was disappointed with the 5E3 because it wasn't clean at high volumes. It was one of the loudest amps of the time, though. The reason people like it now is exactly why Leo didn't like it - it distorts at high volumes.
You can hear what an accurate reproduction of the 5E3 circuit sounds like with both volumes at "4" at my website, here:
(scroll down to the bottom to hear the sound clip). There is some distortion even at that level; as a matter of fact, "4" is where the amp starts to break up.
Clean-ish headroom is available, but there is not much "room" in that headroom.
Best Regards,
e
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