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An even wilder version than the 2004 ETF. What was kind of amazing was seeing the Wall-of-Sound assembled in the main demo room, in the hours before the festival opened, from a very exact set of plans. No permanent attachments to the building, either ... all C-clamps to existing rafters, etc. And then, knocked down at the end of the festival, and carried away in the cars and vans of the team that built them. Truly impressive dedication and craftsmanship. No sloppy work here!
Part of the reason I like triode amps, aside from the wonderful sound, is the camaraderie of triode builders. It really is a genuine community, and very little secrecy and "that's mine, don't you touch it!" attitudes of the mainstream high-end industry. Also, no marketing. We're building what we love.
So even though I'm an old-school speaker guy, I'm designing speakers around direct-heated triode amplifiers, a passion that goes back to the early Nineties. I'm very appreciative of the role that Jean Hiraga played in bringing this forgotten technology back to the West, and equally appreciative that DHT's (of many different types) are in current production in the Czech Republic, Russia, and China.
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A valve is an intrinsically simple and 'practically' very linear device that is a delight to work with. Each amp is unique, but hardly in its topology. It's the implementation, the passion put into getting each component to work in harmony, and the challenge to do it using as many components as necessary but as few as otherwise possible. Nothing forced, the ultimate result is there to be finessed.
I went back to triamped front horns around 108+ db'w with fairly benign impedance - last night i hooked up pp el84 for the bass horn, 300b s
on the big jbl radial 2350 with Community M200 and 45 amps on the treble horn. At the levels i to listen to now (my wife is super sensitive to sound with her ms) it's pretty good although the "Uncle Dave" tweaked out Sunn SS amps sound better in some ways, finer low level detail, less grain, quieter. i think i need to let the tube amps settle in for a few days though.
There really isn't many people in my area that listen or build tube amps anymore - I am the only one I know in the area that still spins vinyl
A good friend was lamenting yesterday that the Vifa surrounds on his ME2's are going and he's pondering where to go next.
He likes them and they've worked well with his SE 300B's but the Vifa drivers are no longer available and there's the unwanted risk of ruining things if he tries putting on aftermarket surrounds. Though he didn't say it, I can imagine he might enjoy trying something new (and better of course!
).
He's focused on the electronic side of DIY and I don't think he wants to dive into the world of speaker design. In other words , I think he'd like to solve his problem and get back to soldering.
I told him I'd try to help and came to this thread tonight thinking there might be an answer, but as it's nearing 14000 posts (Four teen thousand?!?!!!) it's a daunting prospect.
So to save time I'd like to ask, during the course of this thread, have successors to Lynn's Ariel and ME2 actually been arrived at? or did the conversation end up going another direction?
Thanks
He likes them and they've worked well with his SE 300B's but the Vifa drivers are no longer available and there's the unwanted risk of ruining things if he tries putting on aftermarket surrounds. Though he didn't say it, I can imagine he might enjoy trying something new (and better of course!
). He's focused on the electronic side of DIY and I don't think he wants to dive into the world of speaker design. In other words , I think he'd like to solve his problem and get back to soldering.
I told him I'd try to help and came to this thread tonight thinking there might be an answer, but as it's nearing 14000 posts (Four teen thousand?!?!!!) it's a daunting prospect.
So to save time I'd like to ask, during the course of this thread, have successors to Lynn's Ariel and ME2 actually been arrived at? or did the conversation end up going another direction?
Thanks
The issue for Ariel/ME-2 owners is that the discussion has gone well "beyond" the Ariels. And so the resulting speaker is a much bigger beast - closer in size to the VOT that I abandoned (due to low SAF) than the Ariels I eventually built. And last time I added up the cost of the drivers (alone) there was little change from US$10K.
But this is all pretty much in line with Lynn's stated intent, from way back in the beginning of the thread.
In the absence of a viable P13 replacement would-have-been-Ariel-builders seem (IMHO) to be moving to single driver set ups. Or perhaps what might be described as "augmented" single driver set ups with "something else" dealing with <50Hz and above 10K. Metronomes, backhorns, tapped transmission lines etc. combined with a subwoofer and a supertweeter.
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Might be OT, but...
I've seen two books referenced in this thread several times.
Which is recommended if I can get one as a gift?
Floyd Toole "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms"
or
Philip Newell and Keith Holland "Loudspeakers: For music recording and reproduction"
I've seen two books referenced in this thread several times.
Which is recommended if I can get one as a gift?
Floyd Toole "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms"
or
Philip Newell and Keith Holland "Loudspeakers: For music recording and reproduction"
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The Holland and Newell book is only suitable for experienced speaker designers who are interested in high-efficiency, high-dynamic-range studio-monitor speakers. It is not a cookbook, more a collection of good practices used in the professional world.
Haven't looked at Floyd Toole's book recently, so no recommendations one way or the other.
If the giftee is fairly new to loudspeakers, I'd recommend Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook.
For those with Ariels that are getting old, or contemplating an Ariel build from scratch, there are the pretty expensive drivers from Audio Technology in Denmark. I've heard these, and they are modern successor to the drivers in the Ariel. But they're not cheap. The current production Vifa and Scan-Speak drivers have different goals than the original Ariel drivers, and need more equalization in the crossover, so that's a different loudspeaker.
If you'd like to build an Ariel successor with similar drivers, I'd look for a driver with polypropylene cone or very well-damped paper cone, with the smoothest possible HF rolloff region (no peaking or breakup in the 2~5 kHz region at all). Similarly, the dome tweeter needs to be as smooth as possible, and have very good power-handling in the same 2~5 kHz region. This excludes nearly all ribbons, by the way. In principle, it would be possible to build an Ariel successor with a modern AMT-style tweeter, carefully selected paper-cone 6~8" midbass drivers, and a crossover in the 2~3 kHz range.
The fullrange drivers that are popular now are speakers that I never listen to (except briefly at audio shows) or own. I'm not a fan of Fostex, Lowthers, AERs, Feastrex, or any of the other fullrange drivers. Not flat enough, and power-handling is usually less than the Ariel unless loaded with a front horn, which is a very different kind of loudspeaker. Most of all, I don't like drivers with whizzer cones; the mechanical crossover is pretty much always worse than an electrical filter.
I like monitor-class speakers that are reasonably efficient ... this goes back to my days at Audionics, when the inspiration were the Spendor and Harbeth speakers I heard in the UK in the mid-Seventies. The Ariel was intended to be a speaker with Spendor/Harbeth subjective qualities, similar imaging, and 5 dB better efficiency. Getting the next 5 dB, though, requires a completely different design.
Haven't looked at Floyd Toole's book recently, so no recommendations one way or the other.
If the giftee is fairly new to loudspeakers, I'd recommend Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook.
For those with Ariels that are getting old, or contemplating an Ariel build from scratch, there are the pretty expensive drivers from Audio Technology in Denmark. I've heard these, and they are modern successor to the drivers in the Ariel. But they're not cheap. The current production Vifa and Scan-Speak drivers have different goals than the original Ariel drivers, and need more equalization in the crossover, so that's a different loudspeaker.
If you'd like to build an Ariel successor with similar drivers, I'd look for a driver with polypropylene cone or very well-damped paper cone, with the smoothest possible HF rolloff region (no peaking or breakup in the 2~5 kHz region at all). Similarly, the dome tweeter needs to be as smooth as possible, and have very good power-handling in the same 2~5 kHz region. This excludes nearly all ribbons, by the way. In principle, it would be possible to build an Ariel successor with a modern AMT-style tweeter, carefully selected paper-cone 6~8" midbass drivers, and a crossover in the 2~3 kHz range.
The fullrange drivers that are popular now are speakers that I never listen to (except briefly at audio shows) or own. I'm not a fan of Fostex, Lowthers, AERs, Feastrex, or any of the other fullrange drivers. Not flat enough, and power-handling is usually less than the Ariel unless loaded with a front horn, which is a very different kind of loudspeaker. Most of all, I don't like drivers with whizzer cones; the mechanical crossover is pretty much always worse than an electrical filter.
I like monitor-class speakers that are reasonably efficient ... this goes back to my days at Audionics, when the inspiration were the Spendor and Harbeth speakers I heard in the UK in the mid-Seventies. The Ariel was intended to be a speaker with Spendor/Harbeth subjective qualities, similar imaging, and 5 dB better efficiency. Getting the next 5 dB, though, requires a completely different design.
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I'm fairly new to loudspeakers and high-efficiency is my interest.
Was I looking for a cookbook? Not exactly.
I had these two books on my list as reference texts in theory of speakers, room and psycho-acoustics and sound reproduction in general.
Still Vance Dickason is a good call.
And now I'm torn between the three.
Was I looking for a cookbook? Not exactly.
I had these two books on my list as reference texts in theory of speakers, room and psycho-acoustics and sound reproduction in general.
Still Vance Dickason is a good call.
And now I'm torn between the three.
Floyd's book is a must have. After that there are several choices depending on what one is trying to do. But no matter what one is trying to do, the material in the Toole book is an essential background. Just remember that Floyd is not a loudspeaker designer, so there is no information along those lines in it at all.
PS. My own book has been out of print for awhile, but I still have about 1/2 dozen available. It is also in PDF form on my web site. It is a high level engineering text, not a cookbook and not for beginners.
PS. My own book has been out of print for awhile, but I still have about 1/2 dozen available. It is also in PDF form on my web site. It is a high level engineering text, not a cookbook and not for beginners.
I agree with Dr. Geddes. The Floyd Toole book is about goals, which is something all loudspeaker designers need to be aware of. If you want to know how, that's where Vance Dickason's book comes in.
By the way, you are not going to find key bits of info on the Internet, no matter how much you look. A lot of loudspeaker know-how is unspoken "good practice" amongst designers who have been doing this a long time.
By the way, you are not going to find key bits of info on the Internet, no matter how much you look. A lot of loudspeaker know-how is unspoken "good practice" amongst designers who have been doing this a long time.
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A good friend was lamenting yesterday that the Vifa surrounds on his ME2's are going and he's pondering where to go next.
He likes them and they've worked well with his SE 300B's but the Vifa drivers are no longer available and there's the unwanted risk of ruining things if he tries putting on aftermarket surrounds. Though he didn't say it, I can imagine he might enjoy trying something new (and better of course!
He's focused on the electronic side of DIY and I don't think he wants to dive into the world of speaker design. In other words , I think he'd like to solve his problem and get back to soldering.
I told him I'd try to help and came to this thread tonight thinking there might be an answer, but as it's nearing 14000 posts (Four teen thousand?!?!!!) it's a daunting prospect.
So to save time I'd like to ask, during the course of this thread, have successors to Lynn's Ariel and ME2 actually been arrived at? or did the conversation end up going another direction?
Thanks
Tell your friend that there are shops that specialize in installing new surrounds and the expense should be far less that building a set of new speakers. I was listening to an audio-buddy's pair of ME2's just last weekend and I would certainly repair them before I started building another set of speakers.
Best Regards,
TerryO
That's really good advice. If you can avoid shorting or burning the voice coils, the Vifa midbass drivers with new surrounds should last forever. The voice coils on tweeters, though, can go open without warning, and they don't lend themselves to repairs (unless you replace the entire dome/VC assembly).
Fortunately, there are lots of modern soft-dome tweeters that are comparable to the original Scan-Speak sticky-dome D9000 series ... just look for very smooth response and a reasonable Xmax (power-handling in the 1.5 to 2 kHz region). Avoid titanium domes if possible, and consider beryllium if prices come down.
The electrical crossover is little more than a low-Q 2nd-order highpass and lowpass, which translates into a 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley acoustically. All drivers are in-phase, with net 360-degree phase rotation at the original 3.8 kHz crossover frequency. The Ariel is optimized for best power-handling from the tweeter and close phase-tracking across all three drivers, not ideal polar patterns. It does not follow modern Toole design criteria.
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I've had pleasant experiences replacing 9000 series with Usher 9950. Compared to the 9300 I had on hand, the Usher was smoother, more detailed. Maybe not exactly a drop in, but same family of sound, and cost effective and robust.