Hi,
In the trade offs to choose a speaker some will prefer high sensivity details to use SET amp, some others will favor polar patern, some others great resolution with ESL...
In the reccordings favoring dynamic, the gap between the average level and the peaks can be as high as 25 to 30 dB.
Here as example thanks to Mitchba & marco members answers :
Originally Posted by Eldam
@ Mitchba,
Great links and info you provided, thanks a lot for that.
Could you please tell me what is the dynamic gap needed (difference between the lowest and the maximum spl) to listen a red book reccording and also a 20 or 24/96 today reccording please ?
I try to know what could be a confortable average listening level ar home while not having to compressed dynamic peaks in relation to the maximun spl output my speakers allow ! Btw, in relation to the reccording industry, what max spl output capability do you advise for a speaker for having no compression on peaks with a home listening level (80 dB average ?) ?
Thanks a lot for your input of this (question is asked in relation to an ideal 24 bits DAC)
marco is on the money. Typically 20 to 25 dB SPL is the dynamic gap and dare I say, is also indicated in the ITU, EBU, Dolby guidelines linked earlier that the monitoring needs to be capable playing through the range of 80 dB SPL to peaks of 105 dB SPL at the listening position with no dynamic range compression. Also see Bob Katz's article on calibrated monitoring linked to earlier.
One may also find the Dynamic Range Database useful for finding out which pressings of your favorite recordings have the most dynamic range: Album list - Dynamic Range Database Note that DR is only one attribute, albeit an important one, to determine the quality for any given recording.
------------
So If I'm not mistaken 105 dB Spl at 1 meter for the most dynamic reccording if I favor dynamic as one of the quality I like the most in music (I mean in a list of trade off) : I will have at 3 meters listening position only - 6 dB less each time I double the distance so - 9 db at 3 meters (- 12 dB at 4 meters)! Am I correct ? so 96 dB max at 3 meters for a speaker which is 105 db spl max/1 meter : many designs in fact.
My simple understanding is I would need more 105 + 9 dB max output at 1 meter to profite in a compulsive way 😀 of my most dynamic reccording (if the dac chip is able of this headroom : in some subjective listening i OFTEN see dynamic is subjectiv in some 16 bits reccording and some dac are lively with a poor 16 bits !)
So 114 dB/1 meter max spl output. I can see an ESL speaker like the Quad 2905 can output max 90 dB with difficulty at 1 meter : not for me in relation to my priority list !
I assume this 114 dB is only a problem in the low end (subwoofer driver) as a driver max spl output depends on his low end roll off.
If I'm correct enough with that I write just above :
What is the efficienty needed for a driver to match this 114 dB max spl at 1 meter for a driver in the 80 hZ to up XO's ?
Assuming there is the bafle-step, but also room modes in a living room in those frequencies range : do we need an array of several mid-bass woofer to match this max output ? Or simply better to up the XO in an upper range (e.g.: 300 hZ) to have this 114 dB max from a non-pro woofer (a Satori 6.5, a ScanSpeak, etc...) near its Xmax and just use a Lynkwitz transform for the subwoofer below ?
What about the subjectiving feeling of this dynamic in the low medium range (around 80 to 800 hZ ?) when a cone of a Hifi driver is moving for instance to 6 or 8 mm instead 1 or 2 mm max at max output whith a PA driver (e.g. a 12" Beyma 12p80 or a 15" Altec in a vented load) ?
Important or not ? Or am I just I rate dynamic as a to high rank of the trade off list of a good speaker ???
For instance SL deals for classical music with an OB design with huge cone movements from the subs and some find the damping to dry (less than 0.5 QTC if I understood)....
I saw also than some members like StiggErik have a bass array below 200 hZ with huge cones for a better transcient (short cones mvt) !
I would say I always loved what a VOTT can do in the low medium register... but not posible without a caveman in a western living room !
JBL M2 in a living room (some good clone thread around 🙂 ) ???
Synergy design ?
Array ?
therapy + headphones ? (but I mean I prefer listening music than myself or 2 cents psychology from a young bearded which is hung-up
😀 and listen to Madaona !)... I'm more compulisve with CD purchases than drivers or seakers purchases !
best regards !
(PS : planars speakers have not the same rule about - 6 dB each time you double the distance... so a hybrid system must ne setup for a certain distance : e.g. : 3 meters; however some seems to have active EQ now : the curved ESL planar brand !)
In the trade offs to choose a speaker some will prefer high sensivity details to use SET amp, some others will favor polar patern, some others great resolution with ESL...
In the reccordings favoring dynamic, the gap between the average level and the peaks can be as high as 25 to 30 dB.
Here as example thanks to Mitchba & marco members answers :
Originally Posted by Eldam
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
@ Mitchba,
Great links and info you provided, thanks a lot for that.
Could you please tell me what is the dynamic gap needed (difference between the lowest and the maximum spl) to listen a red book reccording and also a 20 or 24/96 today reccording please ?
I try to know what could be a confortable average listening level ar home while not having to compressed dynamic peaks in relation to the maximun spl output my speakers allow ! Btw, in relation to the reccording industry, what max spl output capability do you advise for a speaker for having no compression on peaks with a home listening level (80 dB average ?) ?
Thanks a lot for your input of this (question is asked in relation to an ideal 24 bits DAC)
marco is on the money. Typically 20 to 25 dB SPL is the dynamic gap and dare I say, is also indicated in the ITU, EBU, Dolby guidelines linked earlier that the monitoring needs to be capable playing through the range of 80 dB SPL to peaks of 105 dB SPL at the listening position with no dynamic range compression. Also see Bob Katz's article on calibrated monitoring linked to earlier.
One may also find the Dynamic Range Database useful for finding out which pressings of your favorite recordings have the most dynamic range: Album list - Dynamic Range Database Note that DR is only one attribute, albeit an important one, to determine the quality for any given recording.
------------
So If I'm not mistaken 105 dB Spl at 1 meter for the most dynamic reccording if I favor dynamic as one of the quality I like the most in music (I mean in a list of trade off) : I will have at 3 meters listening position only - 6 dB less each time I double the distance so - 9 db at 3 meters (- 12 dB at 4 meters)! Am I correct ? so 96 dB max at 3 meters for a speaker which is 105 db spl max/1 meter : many designs in fact.
My simple understanding is I would need more 105 + 9 dB max output at 1 meter to profite in a compulsive way 😀 of my most dynamic reccording (if the dac chip is able of this headroom : in some subjective listening i OFTEN see dynamic is subjectiv in some 16 bits reccording and some dac are lively with a poor 16 bits !)
So 114 dB/1 meter max spl output. I can see an ESL speaker like the Quad 2905 can output max 90 dB with difficulty at 1 meter : not for me in relation to my priority list !
I assume this 114 dB is only a problem in the low end (subwoofer driver) as a driver max spl output depends on his low end roll off.
If I'm correct enough with that I write just above :
What is the efficienty needed for a driver to match this 114 dB max spl at 1 meter for a driver in the 80 hZ to up XO's ?
Assuming there is the bafle-step, but also room modes in a living room in those frequencies range : do we need an array of several mid-bass woofer to match this max output ? Or simply better to up the XO in an upper range (e.g.: 300 hZ) to have this 114 dB max from a non-pro woofer (a Satori 6.5, a ScanSpeak, etc...) near its Xmax and just use a Lynkwitz transform for the subwoofer below ?
What about the subjectiving feeling of this dynamic in the low medium range (around 80 to 800 hZ ?) when a cone of a Hifi driver is moving for instance to 6 or 8 mm instead 1 or 2 mm max at max output whith a PA driver (e.g. a 12" Beyma 12p80 or a 15" Altec in a vented load) ?
Important or not ? Or am I just I rate dynamic as a to high rank of the trade off list of a good speaker ???
For instance SL deals for classical music with an OB design with huge cone movements from the subs and some find the damping to dry (less than 0.5 QTC if I understood)....
I saw also than some members like StiggErik have a bass array below 200 hZ with huge cones for a better transcient (short cones mvt) !
I would say I always loved what a VOTT can do in the low medium register... but not posible without a caveman in a western living room !
JBL M2 in a living room (some good clone thread around 🙂 ) ???
Synergy design ?
Array ?
therapy + headphones ? (but I mean I prefer listening music than myself or 2 cents psychology from a young bearded which is hung-up
😀 and listen to Madaona !)... I'm more compulisve with CD purchases than drivers or seakers purchases !
best regards !
(PS : planars speakers have not the same rule about - 6 dB each time you double the distance... so a hybrid system must ne setup for a certain distance : e.g. : 3 meters; however some seems to have active EQ now : the curved ESL planar brand !)
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It's all about tradeoffs. To get a true 105db at 3 meters, like you said you're gonna need 114db at 1 meter. This means you'll need some pretty high efficiency speakers. For example 94db/w/m speakers at 100 watts would get you right there. And as you said to get that kind of efficiency, bass will be your real problem. If you have room for large speakers, the larger the speaker generally you can get the same bass with higher efficiency, or if you're limited on speaker size you can give up low end extension for high efficiency. Of course money also frees up more of these things you want as well. It all depends on what you want. You can set yourself to want a minimum of 114dB at 1 meter and then design around that at some point. The question is once you see how you have to sacrifice other design points, will you still want to design for 114db at 1 meter output or will you want to sacrifice some headroom for bass or cost or size?
Also I'm going deep into the tradeoffs made in speaker design but in practice getting 114db at 1 meter isn't going to be very hard to accomplish.
Also I'm going deep into the tradeoffs made in speaker design but in practice getting 114db at 1 meter isn't going to be very hard to accomplish.
There is an online calculator for that on the lower part of this very interesting site. You can put in the number of speakers, efficiency power and distance.
Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
...and its google powered search engine for audio engineering knowledge.
Sound engineering pro audio terms audio and sound engineer's terms - search engine for sengpielaudio.com audio words calculations glossary technique special field music sound recording - Eberhard Sengpiel - Sengpielaudio is Sengspielaudio and Sengpie
Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
...and its google powered search engine for audio engineering knowledge.
Sound engineering pro audio terms audio and sound engineer's terms - search engine for sengpielaudio.com audio words calculations glossary technique special field music sound recording - Eberhard Sengpiel - Sengpielaudio is Sengspielaudio and Sengpie
Thanks guys,
Very good link for readingd to come 🙂
So not so hard to targett a maximum output 114 spl at 1 meter, but needs a minimum serious efficienty to lower both the power of the amp and increase the transcient (lesser cone exursion) if I understand.
I have to measure my room modes with a calibrated mic I have, but I bet under 100 hZ (in around 40 squaremeters room) having some spl with rooms modes should not be so hard. Certainly hardier above ! So need here more cone surface (bigger driver or more drivers)
How can we know if the transcient of a low medium loaded driver match the transcient of the upper drivers ? Flat phase ? flat spl polar map ?
To rephrase it : do the ears (between 40 hZ to 800 hZ where most of the first harmonics are) can make a difference between fast exursions (ESL, large driver in vented load: 12/15") and longer exursions (because EQ or less bigger driver: 5" to 8") ? Array of low mid bass vs one PA driver ? I.E. : little hifi drivers vs PA one ?
Or is it just a question of storage energy by the driver and damping when it comes to have the best transcient to play + 10 dB to + 30 dB (on the dynamic reccordings which allow it) instant peaks above a serious 80 dB average level ?
Better a standalone driver in this rwide ange with breaking modes or two drivers but with a carefull choosed XO in relation to the room modes (with a little EQ for bafle step) : or it's not important at all ?
: or I choose a Qtc around .5 and .7 and basta ?
Very good link for readingd to come 🙂
So not so hard to targett a maximum output 114 spl at 1 meter, but needs a minimum serious efficienty to lower both the power of the amp and increase the transcient (lesser cone exursion) if I understand.
I have to measure my room modes with a calibrated mic I have, but I bet under 100 hZ (in around 40 squaremeters room) having some spl with rooms modes should not be so hard. Certainly hardier above ! So need here more cone surface (bigger driver or more drivers)
How can we know if the transcient of a low medium loaded driver match the transcient of the upper drivers ? Flat phase ? flat spl polar map ?
To rephrase it : do the ears (between 40 hZ to 800 hZ where most of the first harmonics are) can make a difference between fast exursions (ESL, large driver in vented load: 12/15") and longer exursions (because EQ or less bigger driver: 5" to 8") ? Array of low mid bass vs one PA driver ? I.E. : little hifi drivers vs PA one ?
Or is it just a question of storage energy by the driver and damping when it comes to have the best transcient to play + 10 dB to + 30 dB (on the dynamic reccordings which allow it) instant peaks above a serious 80 dB average level ?
Better a standalone driver in this rwide ange with breaking modes or two drivers but with a carefull choosed XO in relation to the room modes (with a little EQ for bafle step) : or it's not important at all ?
: or I choose a Qtc around .5 and .7 and basta ?
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You need a Trynergy or some other horn loaded speaker. The sensitivity is predicted to be around 105 to 108dB at 1 watt and 1m. I never measured this high but did get about 93dB t 1/3rd watt and 1m. Scaling up to 1 watt is +10dB or 103dB at 1 watt and 1m.
To get 114dB is 11dB more or about under 4 watts. The driver is a 10F/8424 and can handle 30W so plenty of room. Also the HD is very low (here is 0.5m with 1.62 volts drive or 340mW).
More info on Trynergy here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ll-range-tractrix-synergy-80.html#post4509142
Freq resp:
HD:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...ll-range-tractrix-synergy-trynergy-10f-hd.png
You need a good FLH or TH sub to go with it to cover below 100 Hz but 114dB is not a problem for most 12in horn subs.
It can play wide dynamic range music very well. Here is a sound clip (change to .mp3 to play):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...ix-synergy-trynergy-10f-8424-harsch-drums.asc
To get 114dB is 11dB more or about under 4 watts. The driver is a 10F/8424 and can handle 30W so plenty of room. Also the HD is very low (here is 0.5m with 1.62 volts drive or 340mW).
More info on Trynergy here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ll-range-tractrix-synergy-80.html#post4509142
Freq resp:
HD:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...ll-range-tractrix-synergy-trynergy-10f-hd.png
You need a good FLH or TH sub to go with it to cover below 100 Hz but 114dB is not a problem for most 12in horn subs.
It can play wide dynamic range music very well. Here is a sound clip (change to .mp3 to play):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...ix-synergy-trynergy-10f-8424-harsch-drums.asc
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Hey X. always on the desk, Thanks for the tips...
like the sound of this 10F...
Ok i didn t think the mid-bass dayton was good enough between the 10F and à sub.
what is TH for à sub please?
(DRC8 for Santa....)
like the sound of this 10F...
Ok i didn t think the mid-bass dayton was good enough between the 10F and à sub.
what is TH for à sub please?
(DRC8 for Santa....)
Don't forget +6dB in the bass to compensate for baffle step, so 120dB capability for woofers. More if you want headroom to EQ.
Forget sensitivity for woofers, look at Xmax instead. Down low you physically need to move a certain volume of air (Sd x Xmax) to achieve a certain level of loudness (SPL).
You really need to model but this calculator gives you an idea of what you need to get you there:
Piston Excursion calculator
Use actual piston diameter as derived from Sd. For example, using the 12P80Nd I know you've been flirting with, which has diameter 10.6" and xmax 7.5mm, down to 60Hz, you need 3.6 of them - or 3 if you are prepared to push excursion to 9 mm - or 2 per side.
Forget sensitivity for woofers, look at Xmax instead. Down low you physically need to move a certain volume of air (Sd x Xmax) to achieve a certain level of loudness (SPL).
You really need to model but this calculator gives you an idea of what you need to get you there:
Piston Excursion calculator
Use actual piston diameter as derived from Sd. For example, using the 12P80Nd I know you've been flirting with, which has diameter 10.6" and xmax 7.5mm, down to 60Hz, you need 3.6 of them - or 3 if you are prepared to push excursion to 9 mm - or 2 per side.
It depends on the room whether that is necessary. If you are outside you need full baffle step compensation. No compensation is necessary in a small room, sometimes it is even necessary to decrease the bass level.
TH is tapped horn. You probably don't need one this big (18in driver) but it is a good example of how easily 100+dB can be obtained for 1 watt.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design.html
Probably a 12in version is sufficient.
Once More good input from you InOtIn 🙂 ....thank you again xrq also : I'm less fried for the low bass if it's below 80 hZ.
@ TBL : the bass level is when the room modes enhance the bass ? Correct ? (the problem is more the transition aera if I understand : often around 200 Hz ?
Usefull, I have also something near this link Jeshi member showed in a thread (max spl in relation to the low XO and the cone size as well) ;
Wow, we really see than low Qts for transcient in a sealed has a price 😉 : or one had to choose a higher XO like a 300 hZ for such driver if sealed (really made for vented with Qts as low as 0.15 😱 !). I'm not too much for sealed but experienced member like pos says the group delay of the vented port can be puut in phase with the cone easily now with his soft or equivalent !
Yes I'm really looking at several options which are less and less but Beyma is still an option for mid bass (low medium) and bass : I looked them all (the new and ancient catalog, and there a lot of good options : 12G40, 12MI100, etc : all depend on the XO choosed in the low medium....
I Knew a planar could had been a good option but I gived up the idea : too complex (mixing planar and cone behavior) for a first design. So I choosed to be converted to a XO under 800 Hz max and better full range above (Earl Gedles, Harsh XO à la xrq971, M2 horn + D2 driver, looked Welterys Synergy as well, but too big if no caveman as a complex W Onken or a Vott-A7... no living room friendly😀 : here a + for Wesayso's arrays : the best looking DIY design here so far).
Well, coming back to my first sheeps preocupation, aka : livelyness behavior and low medium, I understand the terrible dilemna : the choice of the XO in relation to the room modes, M&F curve (below 200 hZ) and the possibilities of the driver !
So a Beyma 12P80nd : does it worth to use it in wide band in a sealed 60 liters if it's to loose the transcient because the need of a huge EQ ? It's of course the sense of the post 1 question ! And I understand from your answer the complexity of this trade off : need more 2 x 12P80nd per side... or a vented load... or an other driver choice 😱.
The range below 80 or 100 Hz is not a procupation : I saw a lot of good options.
So if I want not a 1 meter horn à la Carpenter or VolvoTreter members for the mid-bass (low medium) the choice are (assuming I definitly choosed active filtering) :
- A synergy , e.g. the design from xrq971 if the Dayton has this spl possibility for some milisecond peaks - we know now the Scan Speak 10 F above can do it !)
- Direct driver(s) with a lot of Sd, especially if the XO is low (near 100 Hz); which is likely with a max XO at 800 hZ or lower !
(the choice is more limited now in relation to the open post #1 : so great progress 😎 - I follow also a lot the conclusions of Lewinski and Vynilvalves member around the Beymas and Lantec thread around the JBL M2 diy... of course the gap in price between designs is huge : just a M2 horn + his driver & flange is 1000 dollar per side at SpeakerExchange + 30% import costs)... at the other side : Trynergy (or an hybrid Trynergy with ScanSpeak 10 F with foam horn only and a Dayton or huger Beyma in a sealed enclosure is certainly 4 x less expensive !)
According yours experiences guys : which is the best behavior trade off between the two design above for having some "Wompf" (kick in the...) but fast & light (the low medium has not to be dull or thick either... but has to move "a little air" ! Both design are equivalent but for the price ? Are my conclusion good enough ?
@ TBL : the bass level is when the room modes enhance the bass ? Correct ? (the problem is more the transition aera if I understand : often around 200 Hz ?
Usefull, I have also something near this link Jeshi member showed in a thread (max spl in relation to the low XO and the cone size as well) ;
Wow, we really see than low Qts for transcient in a sealed has a price 😉 : or one had to choose a higher XO like a 300 hZ for such driver if sealed (really made for vented with Qts as low as 0.15 😱 !). I'm not too much for sealed but experienced member like pos says the group delay of the vented port can be puut in phase with the cone easily now with his soft or equivalent !
Yes I'm really looking at several options which are less and less but Beyma is still an option for mid bass (low medium) and bass : I looked them all (the new and ancient catalog, and there a lot of good options : 12G40, 12MI100, etc : all depend on the XO choosed in the low medium....
I Knew a planar could had been a good option but I gived up the idea : too complex (mixing planar and cone behavior) for a first design. So I choosed to be converted to a XO under 800 Hz max and better full range above (Earl Gedles, Harsh XO à la xrq971, M2 horn + D2 driver, looked Welterys Synergy as well, but too big if no caveman as a complex W Onken or a Vott-A7... no living room friendly😀 : here a + for Wesayso's arrays : the best looking DIY design here so far).
Well, coming back to my first sheeps preocupation, aka : livelyness behavior and low medium, I understand the terrible dilemna : the choice of the XO in relation to the room modes, M&F curve (below 200 hZ) and the possibilities of the driver !
So a Beyma 12P80nd : does it worth to use it in wide band in a sealed 60 liters if it's to loose the transcient because the need of a huge EQ ? It's of course the sense of the post 1 question ! And I understand from your answer the complexity of this trade off : need more 2 x 12P80nd per side... or a vented load... or an other driver choice 😱.
The range below 80 or 100 Hz is not a procupation : I saw a lot of good options.
So if I want not a 1 meter horn à la Carpenter or VolvoTreter members for the mid-bass (low medium) the choice are (assuming I definitly choosed active filtering) :
- A synergy , e.g. the design from xrq971 if the Dayton has this spl possibility for some milisecond peaks - we know now the Scan Speak 10 F above can do it !)
- Direct driver(s) with a lot of Sd, especially if the XO is low (near 100 Hz); which is likely with a max XO at 800 hZ or lower !
(the choice is more limited now in relation to the open post #1 : so great progress 😎 - I follow also a lot the conclusions of Lewinski and Vynilvalves member around the Beymas and Lantec thread around the JBL M2 diy... of course the gap in price between designs is huge : just a M2 horn + his driver & flange is 1000 dollar per side at SpeakerExchange + 30% import costs)... at the other side : Trynergy (or an hybrid Trynergy with ScanSpeak 10 F with foam horn only and a Dayton or huger Beyma in a sealed enclosure is certainly 4 x less expensive !)
According yours experiences guys : which is the best behavior trade off between the two design above for having some "Wompf" (kick in the...) but fast & light (the low medium has not to be dull or thick either... but has to move "a little air" ! Both design are equivalent but for the price ? Are my conclusion good enough ?
With subs, if properly horn loaded, do not require a lot of xmax. They require strong motors with high BL and lower Qts. For chest punch, the range of interest is 80Hz to 150Hz. Look a what a University Classic with an 18in driver can do. Driver barely moves but it delivers about 108dB per watt from 70Hz to 500Hz. Typical drivers have maybe 6mm xmax and 100dB sensitivity. The transient pulse from a FLH can't be beat and they have very low group delay.
Eldam, not sure what Dayton driver you keep talking about? The RS225-8 I used for bass was for other FAST project. The Trynergy uses four 6.5in mid woofers in series parallel near the horn mouth. There is not horn loading but some directional gain - in fact I don't think baffle step applies because of the semi directional nature of the output.
Eldam, not sure what Dayton driver you keep talking about? The RS225-8 I used for bass was for other FAST project. The Trynergy uses four 6.5in mid woofers in series parallel near the horn mouth. There is not horn loading but some directional gain - in fact I don't think baffle step applies because of the semi directional nature of the output.
à la BW800 ?
Yes X your are right, I mix myself between your many designs ! Have to read from A to Z the Trynergy thread ! Can it output in the mid-bass the same 114 dB pic on a transcient with the help of the horn ?
Thanks for the input about 80 Hz to 150 Hz tip. This is tricky zone... I saw many well regarded designs (I remember an input of LineSources member about Stereophile measurements) with a bump around 100 HZ... to 200 Hz in some designs... needs to a good measure of the room !
I believe for the first octaves there are a lot of good speakers : The 10" Seas SL uses (low efficienty but huge Xmax and rigid metal cone : so below 80 Hz as the BL is low - or need a good Class D PS; btw can be in a sealed box everywhere in the room if <80 Hz); some Beymas : SM-115/K (Fs:29; BL: 23 N/A; Xmax : 8 mm) : but not sure the datas are good here : have a doubt on a real FS at 29 Hz !
K-horn is not suited for the "chest punch" ? The 114 dB (+ 6/ dB if a bafle step is needed) is just for the biggest transcients in my mind.
So two different paths to follow : a bass sub which is able to match the transcient of the upper mid-bass if the XO is around 200 Hz (for the 80 Hz to 150 Hz kick)
Or a mid-woof which can manage this 80 Hz/150 Hz kick and the bafle step to XO near a horned 10F or a M2 horn !
from a simple point of view the second solution seems easier ? bigger cabinet and little EQ on the 80/150 Hz ! But will it have the kick of a dedicated big boy with huge BL/sensivity like the Beyma ? The amp factor seems to me not to be a problem with the price of class D watt today ?!
At equal quality, I will always choose the littliest foot print factor (no caveman yet !)
Yes X your are right, I mix myself between your many designs ! Have to read from A to Z the Trynergy thread ! Can it output in the mid-bass the same 114 dB pic on a transcient with the help of the horn ?
Thanks for the input about 80 Hz to 150 Hz tip. This is tricky zone... I saw many well regarded designs (I remember an input of LineSources member about Stereophile measurements) with a bump around 100 HZ... to 200 Hz in some designs... needs to a good measure of the room !
I believe for the first octaves there are a lot of good speakers : The 10" Seas SL uses (low efficienty but huge Xmax and rigid metal cone : so below 80 Hz as the BL is low - or need a good Class D PS; btw can be in a sealed box everywhere in the room if <80 Hz); some Beymas : SM-115/K (Fs:29; BL: 23 N/A; Xmax : 8 mm) : but not sure the datas are good here : have a doubt on a real FS at 29 Hz !
K-horn is not suited for the "chest punch" ? The 114 dB (+ 6/ dB if a bafle step is needed) is just for the biggest transcients in my mind.
So two different paths to follow : a bass sub which is able to match the transcient of the upper mid-bass if the XO is around 200 Hz (for the 80 Hz to 150 Hz kick)
Or a mid-woof which can manage this 80 Hz/150 Hz kick and the bafle step to XO near a horned 10F or a M2 horn !
from a simple point of view the second solution seems easier ? bigger cabinet and little EQ on the 80/150 Hz ! But will it have the kick of a dedicated big boy with huge BL/sensivity like the Beyma ? The amp factor seems to me not to be a problem with the price of class D watt today ?!
At equal quality, I will always choose the littliest foot print factor (no caveman yet !)
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