and there's no "combo" (the CD and the horn) that we can buy? Eminence has one but FS is 3500Hz and I thibk it's to high! I'll look to SEOS horn right after I post this thread 😛
do you know Eminence woofer that cost less than 150$CA that can fit in a maximum 55L box and that give a "good" 60hz? Do you think a 10$ maybe a good choice? 10" are smaller and they are cheaper(take the dayton choose here, the 10" version is 20$ cheaper) so maybe I could have a better 10" for the same price? box will be smaller (I think) and the driver will probably weight a bit less?
thanks 🙂
do you know Eminence woofer that cost less than 150$CA that can fit in a maximum 55L box and that give a "good" 60hz? Do you think a 10$ maybe a good choice? 10" are smaller and they are cheaper(take the dayton choose here, the 10" version is 20$ cheaper) so maybe I could have a better 10" for the same price? box will be smaller (I think) and the driver will probably weight a bit less?
thanks 🙂
NOTHING you can build into a *single box* using any direct radiator known to man will do what you want: play loud enough for 100 people "outside". Perhaps not inside. Unless I misunderstand.
An array of drivers or cabinets *might* work.
A single INuke is asking for major trouble.
There is a potential solution in a "single" box, some fellow named Danley came up with it, and there is information on how to "roll ur own" on this forum, but this creates an enclosure that is somewhat directional, and if you want wider dispersion you may need to use more than one per side, or do other things...
No single low cost compression driver + horn will likely give you enough SPL at low enough distortion for your proposed application.
Also, you might want to take into account the absorption of "100 kids" in a room/space.
Ur into PA/SR stuff here - Public Address/Sound Reinforcement.
An array of drivers or cabinets *might* work.
A single INuke is asking for major trouble.
There is a potential solution in a "single" box, some fellow named Danley came up with it, and there is information on how to "roll ur own" on this forum, but this creates an enclosure that is somewhat directional, and if you want wider dispersion you may need to use more than one per side, or do other things...
No single low cost compression driver + horn will likely give you enough SPL at low enough distortion for your proposed application.
Also, you might want to take into account the absorption of "100 kids" in a room/space.
Ur into PA/SR stuff here - Public Address/Sound Reinforcement.
Well, let me amend that - Back in the day, something like an Altec A7 sort of did the job. Today there are some SR speakers - but not inexpensive - that probably will produce enough SPL from a single enclosure to handle the situation, but not with much output below about 125Hz (I expect).
_-_-bear
_-_-bear
I plan on making 2 first to see how they sound, after I'll build another pair, my biggest gig I did ouside was a 200 persons gigs in a large field... 2 years ago I only had 2 behringer B112D(that still work, but... that's why I want to build new ones!) and I think they were ok... no subs... 2 cheap 12" did the job... when I make gigs outside it's not a big scene it's just a cocktail or a 5-7... the music don't have to be loud... everybody have to hear the music, but not loud... I don't think that with my B112D everybody heard... yeah they heard but not loud... once again... in a cocktail you want to hear the conversation... so I think it was perfect... now I have 2 THAM12 to cover the 50-120hz range... so the B112D are ok... not good, just ok!
about Inuke... I bought them at chrismast... no problem with them yet! they are not 3000W they are 2000W but I paid 300$ for it... not to much distorsion, the fan is easy to change(i did it) and I don't know why you are saying that I will have any major problem with it!
of course, I will buy another for the speaker. but the dayton is 900W PEAK and the driver I think to buy is 120W peak both in 8ohms so in parallel it make 4ohms... 450rms +60rms =510rms the amp is giving 500rms per chanel... I think that I gonna be ok, and I do not want more than this... I'll max 3dB more... don't want to spead more cash for 3dB xD
and my gigs are often inside.
thanks for your help! but be positive! no and not aren't the answers I'm looking for! I think that a 350-400$ per cab is enough to get a maximum 200persons outide gig... with subs... 2 tham12... as I said I'll build more if I make more cash this year!
I've jus t look at the contract I sign with the client before the gig, inside it's always about 100-250 persons, outside ( only 6 gigs yet but...I plan to do more) it's between 50 persons and 210 persons. the 210 persons gig was on a baseball field, it was for hema-quebec, a blood collect compagny in quebec, I have paper to prouve that it was me... and on the picture you will see...it was big...with only 2 behringers, I put the speaker on top of the stand, somebody was speaking in the mic, everybody on the baseball field heard because when we call them the were coming 😛 for th e music...of course these don't do bass under 100hz at a good level...but you know... they were there to play baseball ( not exactly, in french it's "balle-molle"...maybe softball in english?)
I can't think that 249.99$ pre-amp speakers can do the job and 350-400$ passive speakers cannont do it! 😛
I can't think that 249.99$ pre-amp speakers can do the job and 350-400$ passive speakers cannont do it! 😛
Voice PA and music PA are quite different.
Voice can be narrow band limited to improve intelligibility.
Music needs a wider bandwidth to "sound" correct.
Easy.
Beyma 15P1200Nd and an EV DH1a. Big ported box, 2kW amp into the woofer.
It won't crush any skulls, but will do what you say all day. PA woofers aren't what they used to be.
OP, find some 90x40 horns. A pair of 12"s will be slightly borderline for outdoors - I certainly wouldn't ask any bass out of them. For all we know, the Behringers were hard limiting when the mic was in use 😉
Chris
one speaker in Pi loading is equal to two speakers in 2Pi loading and equal to 4 speakers in 4Pi loading provided they are close together to benefit from the close coupling reference their LF passband.
of course...power is important here 😛 maybe a double 10" or double 8"? or a super compact dual 12"? max width is 35cm and depth is max 55cm, height is max 55cm too! I want the 35cm x 55cm face in front. so a 15" is not possible here.. dual need a really wierd design, dual 10" is possible but I'll need bullet tweeter and dual 8... I don't expect bass from a 8" PA woofer! what do you think of bullet tweeters for PA use? I don't like the idea but maybe it's possible... or maybe a small horn? 55cm depth... maybe we can do a horn with this?
thanks
thanks
Way back when, we used arrays of either piezo horns for 'small' 'gigs' or RadioShack phenolic diaphragm loaded 'bullet' tweeter horns for high power apps. I still have a couple and had forgotten just how 'right'/'full' phenolic diaphragms sound, though roll off much lower than the piezos as the trade-off.
No clue what's available these days though and frankly, I figured the only 'bullet' horns would be large piezos, which at least way back when sounded way too strident at high power for us.
The best sounding were Altec 802 horn drivers with a very short horn extension, XO'd at > 5 kHz/2nd order and with 30 clean watts and near 112 dB/4ft eff., a couple in stereo could 'light up' a room.
GM
No clue what's available these days though and frankly, I figured the only 'bullet' horns would be large piezos, which at least way back when sounded way too strident at high power for us.
The best sounding were Altec 802 horn drivers with a very short horn extension, XO'd at > 5 kHz/2nd order and with 30 clean watts and near 112 dB/4ft eff., a couple in stereo could 'light up' a room.
GM
Hmm, I'm really 'behind the times' with all the new horns, drivers, [mid] bass woofers available, so all I can say is that the horn mouth area needs to be at least as large as the driver's frame size it XOs to, ergo the smaller the woofer, the higher the XO can be and the smaller, shorter the horn can be, so find a horn/woofer
Note that you design for the smallest venue and array as required for larger ones and if I'm repeating what others have already posted since I don't have the luxury of time the days to do much browsing/following threads, then never mind.
GM
Hi,
first, thanks for your help! very appreciate!
ok now I need to know wat XO , ergo mean! cant find them on the web! I'm french so i don't undertand every thing! XO... look like X over... not sure!
I don'T really undertand the second part of your post! sorry i'M not very good and google translate is very bad for me... sometimes english words have to signification or more and google translate don'T know the one you want to say! but I think you mean that I design a speaker, that I will always use as a pair for now, and if I want to do bigger gigs, I'll build another pair etc etc?
now I'm on HR, I'm trying to sim something good with 8" speakers... I will looks at every little thing this time! I almost always regrets my builds because I look enough and I expect more...now I don't want this feeling! any ideas will be look, I will search design and post results!
thanks for all your time... giving your knowledge to beginner like me is really a good thing... thanks! 🙂
HR results
ok, here you can see
1x8"
2x8"
1X10"
2x10"
1x12"
2x12"
the 2X12" is not that good...not as I've expect! the 2x10" is not good for me.. not flat enough...maybe I'll need to change something in the box! but the 2x8" looks good... like the 2x12" but 3db lower or 4db lower... but with this size box... and the price... I can build 4 easely! VRC is 54,9L AP 100 and Lpt 12,9 so the box will be very small! what do you think! 4 2x8" or two 2x12"?
PS all sims are in 4 Pi at 2,83V at 8 ohms
ok, here you can see
1x8"
2x8"
1X10"
2x10"
1x12"
2x12"
the 2X12" is not that good...not as I've expect! the 2x10" is not good for me.. not flat enough...maybe I'll need to change something in the box! but the 2x8" looks good... like the 2x12" but 3db lower or 4db lower... but with this size box... and the price... I can build 4 easely! VRC is 54,9L AP 100 and Lpt 12,9 so the box will be very small! what do you think! 4 2x8" or two 2x12"?
PS all sims are in 4 Pi at 2,83V at 8 ohms
Attachments
Greets!
You are welcome! Sorry, your 'English' seemed good enough and so many French Canadians 'speak' good enough English that I did not take your nationality into consideration.
I too suffer your problems with Google translate, especially with technical forums such as this one.
Right, XO = the electrical crossover between drivers.
Google is your friend for learning about everyday words, so for 'ergo' and 'venue': https://www.google.com/webhp?source...VNC_enUS609US610&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ergo
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...NC_enUS609US610&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=venue
Also for colloquialisms and slang such as ‘gig’ to mean a musical event: https://www.google.com/webhp?source...9US610&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=colloquialisms
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...NC_enUS609US610&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=slang
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...AVNC_enUS609US610&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=gig
Right, normally a set of speakers is designed for the smallest gig and multiples stacked [arrayed] to get the desired peak SPL @ ‘x’ distance over ‘y’ horizontal arc and ‘z’ vertical arc.
In retrospect though, I should have added that if some gigs are considerably larger and some really large, then it may make more sense for whatever reason to make a larger system for the larger gigs and use multiples of them for the really large ones and if need be, use the small ones for side and/or rear 'fill'.
GM
thanks! and my english is just enough( I think) to understand the biggest part of what you say!! my brain is working very hard ahahahah
thanks for all the definissions!
yeah, the biggest gig I've made was 350 persons, inside... the place was too small for all these little persons! but yeah I think it was ok! In this time I had 2 15" in I kind of scoop box I bough when I was really new to loudspeakers! (the guy wasn't ok... these when not good for the price!) but I think it was loud enough! now I have two tham12, 1 15" BR ( I have 2 more identical 15", so I'll build another box soon and I'll keep the last one for if U blow one! 😛
For now, my 2 tham12 are perfect for me! so the speakers don't have to be louder than the tham12... because the tham12 are loud enough...
25 of the time it's big events... the other 75% it's only small private party! 😛
thanks for your help!!
note that tomorrow I leave my home for 1 week, so I'll not answer for the next week! but don't esitate when I'll get back I read every post! 🙂
thanks
Again, you first have to decide what the desired peak SPL @ ‘x’ distance over ‘y’ horizontal arc and ‘z’ vertical arc is before you can choose the woofers and number required since each combination will have a different horizontal polar response, ergo different XO point/slope requirements and if you can't have all three in the desired cab size, then peak SPL is usually the one compromised.
WRT [search NetLingo The Internet Dictionary for non technical abbreviations] how flat the sim looks, it's mostly irrelevant since it will probably need to be EQ'd differently at each show and often differently in different sections of an array, so prosound speakers are often tuned a little under-damped [peaking at box tuning [Fb]] to get a little more peak SPL out of them since once heated up the speaker will have a higher effective Qt [AKA thermal power compression] to further help keep the driver from bottoming out at high SPL.
GM
peak SPL... hard to say! I think the 2 tham12 give about 127-130dB at 1 feet or maybe more I never look! and I'm not super good with SPL estimation,same SPL for the speakers so 103dB at 1W (not sure if it's in 1 pi or 2 pi) but anyway! like I said there's no fix distance, it's never the same! next gig(5 september) the dance floor will be 25' square and 30' tall! but the area that need to have sound is 100' per 200' but this is the place need only to have background music! but it's outside!
yeah, 2kw into a single woofer or a pair of woofers might be a problem IF you are running the amps at or near their max power level. That's what I was referring to earlier. No matter what the mfr rates them at. There is a reason that speaker recone centers remain in business to this day.
But have fun with ur project.
_-_-
But have fun with ur project.
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