For your information Derek:
This place (a warehouse with concrete walls, basically) is about 3,800 cubic meters.
I measured with an SPL-calibrated mic; 104dB (midrange/hi bandwith) and 112dB @ very low 28hz, both at a distance of 14 meters. 104dB was with music while 112dB was with a pure 28hz tone.
I heard much louder in my life but that is Christmas-party-approved in my book. 🙂
* It's also very underpowered as the 12x JL audio 10w6v3 are powered only by a pair of ICE 700asc's
WMMTMMW
Cool,
In that case I can recommend the Stage Accompany true ribbon, (its the only thing better than the great Beyma TPL) flanked by a pair of the 6.5 inch PHL I posted earlier, then a pair of Beyma 12 P 80 Nd's then a pair of 18 inch Precision devices PD 1850's.
Assuming studio grade DSP / crossover / Eq / room Eq and Smaart Live or similar speaker / room measurement software your approx driver bandwidths can be :
SA Ribbon - 4KHz and up. (Its easily capable of 1Khz & up in a domestic system, but I gather you want a very broad bandwidth from your mids?)
PHL 6.5 inch - 700Hz to 4KHz. (Astonishing Mms to B ratio, huge dynamics, sensitive and detailed)
Beyma 12P80 Nd 80Hz to 700Hz. (4 inch voice coil, superb Mms to Bl ratio, massive dynamics and detail)
Precision Devices 1850 20Hz to 80Hz. (5 inch voice coil, great Mms to Bl, lowest power compression / highest dynamics of any 18 inch Pro driver, bullet proof build quality and stunning sound)
All drivers to be in sealed cabinets made from 18mm stranded bamboo for best acoustic properties, gorgeous looks, easy to machine and finish and fantastic environmental benefits....Its a grass not a wood and is almost carbon neutral if bought from an FSC approved source.
Hope this helps
Derek.
Cool,
In that case I can recommend the Stage Accompany true ribbon, (its the only thing better than the great Beyma TPL) flanked by a pair of the 6.5 inch PHL I posted earlier, then a pair of Beyma 12 P 80 Nd's then a pair of 18 inch Precision devices PD 1850's.
Assuming studio grade DSP / crossover / Eq / room Eq and Smaart Live or similar speaker / room measurement software your approx driver bandwidths can be :
SA Ribbon - 4KHz and up. (Its easily capable of 1Khz & up in a domestic system, but I gather you want a very broad bandwidth from your mids?)
PHL 6.5 inch - 700Hz to 4KHz. (Astonishing Mms to B ratio, huge dynamics, sensitive and detailed)
Beyma 12P80 Nd 80Hz to 700Hz. (4 inch voice coil, superb Mms to Bl ratio, massive dynamics and detail)
Precision Devices 1850 20Hz to 80Hz. (5 inch voice coil, great Mms to Bl, lowest power compression / highest dynamics of any 18 inch Pro driver, bullet proof build quality and stunning sound)
All drivers to be in sealed cabinets made from 18mm stranded bamboo for best acoustic properties, gorgeous looks, easy to machine and finish and fantastic environmental benefits....Its a grass not a wood and is almost carbon neutral if bought from an FSC approved source.
Hope this helps
Derek.
thanks for the recipe Derek, a lot of nice ideas 🙂
Actually i never pre-set my mind to such thing. I'm using a DEQX dsp (linear phase 300db/oct) or a miniDSP and i play with xover points until i find which driver is doing the best in a particular bandwith.
At this very moment, i'm using Seas Exotic F8 (very small sealed cabinet) along with RAAL 140-15D for everything above 370hz. Tweeter/mid @ 2840hz.
The best 500hz+ i ever heard in my life was a combo using a Voxativ AC-2.8 + 140-15D crossed at +/-3700hz. Got goosebumps.
Not yet compared the Beyma TPL150/200 to the RAAL, but i'd like to somedays. Seems very popular on diyaudio.
Actually i never pre-set my mind to such thing. I'm using a DEQX dsp (linear phase 300db/oct) or a miniDSP and i play with xover points until i find which driver is doing the best in a particular bandwith.
At this very moment, i'm using Seas Exotic F8 (very small sealed cabinet) along with RAAL 140-15D for everything above 370hz. Tweeter/mid @ 2840hz.
The best 500hz+ i ever heard in my life was a combo using a Voxativ AC-2.8 + 140-15D crossed at +/-3700hz. Got goosebumps.
Not yet compared the Beyma TPL150/200 to the RAAL, but i'd like to somedays. Seems very popular on diyaudio.
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Next commercial job....?
I might be able to make your next commercial job(s) a lot simpler....
The attached is a pre production spec / render of our commercial cinema monitor.
Its is a modular / stackable design which is easily adaptable for large venue's / event spaces.
A pair of 4.5 meter tall stacks will fill a 4,000 cubic meter venue with lifelike full range (25Hz -3dB) low distortion music at any SPL you like....
Well 120dB at stage front plus 8 meters is going to cover most mid sized venues....Thats without any subs!
They also work out lower in price than any commercial line array of even remotely comparable performance.
All the best
Derek.
I might be able to make your next commercial job(s) a lot simpler....
The attached is a pre production spec / render of our commercial cinema monitor.
Its is a modular / stackable design which is easily adaptable for large venue's / event spaces.
A pair of 4.5 meter tall stacks will fill a 4,000 cubic meter venue with lifelike full range (25Hz -3dB) low distortion music at any SPL you like....
Well 120dB at stage front plus 8 meters is going to cover most mid sized venues....Thats without any subs!
They also work out lower in price than any commercial line array of even remotely comparable performance.
All the best
Derek.
Low Qts...Just add Eq and small sealed Vb for perfection!
Yup its a unique driver and one that can be made to perform at the highest level if used with a DEQX and the right cabinet...Its great!
D.
Yup its a unique driver and one that can be made to perform at the highest level if used with a DEQX and the right cabinet...Its great!
D.
I'm using that one for almost 10 years now:
Volt Loudspeakers | BM2500.4 (10″)
I'm not afraid to say that this might be the weakest part of my speakers now. Partly because i don't have a real 4-way active set-up (DEQX = 3-way) and also because that driver lacks of the details/dynamics level my mid and tweeter offers. On the other hand, it's very far from being unsatisfactory...
Beyma 12P80ND Speakers - Beyma 12P80ND speaker - Beyma 12P80ND 1,400 watt 12" woofer for all high efficiency 12" speaker applications. Beyma 12P80ND neodymium speaker and other Beyma neodymium lightweight speakers here.
Reasonable price.
what else have you tried (10's and 12's only) to cover +/- 80hz to 700hz ?
DEQX is great!
I love the DEQX....I used one of the first DEQX units back in 2004 / 5 at the CES show in Vegas....Won a best newcomer that year and joint best in show the next year....Checkout this old review.... 6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
I ended up taking the DEQX to crazy highs...See pics....Separate enclosures for the DSP boards and our own mega power supplies, then battery power supplies, external DAC's with autoformer volume control, resonance control, RFI / EMI blocking, Sistrum stands.....OMG looking back I really was an addict!
But the core DEQX DSP is still a great choice, just use the digital in / out and use your own DAC's.
I used the Manger driver (another great candidate for your wide band mids?) from around 300Hz 400Hz up, its a lovely sound, but for the last 4 or 5 years have been developing the BMR into something even better....
I have never heard the Seas F8 or the Voxativ AC 2.8.....But I am familiar with various Raal ribbons, OEM and DIY.....My advice would be have a listen to the Stage Accompany....!
All the best
Derek.
I love the DEQX....I used one of the first DEQX units back in 2004 / 5 at the CES show in Vegas....Won a best newcomer that year and joint best in show the next year....Checkout this old review.... 6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
I ended up taking the DEQX to crazy highs...See pics....Separate enclosures for the DSP boards and our own mega power supplies, then battery power supplies, external DAC's with autoformer volume control, resonance control, RFI / EMI blocking, Sistrum stands.....OMG looking back I really was an addict!
But the core DEQX DSP is still a great choice, just use the digital in / out and use your own DAC's.
I used the Manger driver (another great candidate for your wide band mids?) from around 300Hz 400Hz up, its a lovely sound, but for the last 4 or 5 years have been developing the BMR into something even better....
I have never heard the Seas F8 or the Voxativ AC 2.8.....But I am familiar with various Raal ribbons, OEM and DIY.....My advice would be have a listen to the Stage Accompany....!
All the best
Derek.
Attachments
Funny you mention the Volt BM2500.4....
The volt BM 2500.4 was what I used for 7 years....Until the Beyma was released!
Here is the volt BM2500.4 in a very special VPL open baffle....This massively improves the performance over a flat baffle.
If you have your Volt in a ported box you are in for a very pleasant shock when you hear the same driver in a correctly designed sealed box and DEQX'd.
Now if you have the room ( 6 feet clear air behind the cabinet) you can use the VPL open baffle....That will elevate the Volt to another level again.
The Beyma is even better than the Volt......!
All the best
Derek.
The volt BM 2500.4 was what I used for 7 years....Until the Beyma was released!
Here is the volt BM2500.4 in a very special VPL open baffle....This massively improves the performance over a flat baffle.
If you have your Volt in a ported box you are in for a very pleasant shock when you hear the same driver in a correctly designed sealed box and DEQX'd.
Now if you have the room ( 6 feet clear air behind the cabinet) you can use the VPL open baffle....That will elevate the Volt to another level again.
The Beyma is even better than the Volt......!
All the best
Derek.
Attachments
i'm actually very satisfied of the recent DEQX's DAC (PDC-3.0 ''HD'' ?)
I once compared it to some exotic DAC and wasnt convinced at all of the benefits.
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Yes i also tried the Manger driver 🙂
That is another beast completely. A very unique sonic signature, extremely smooth but detailed at the same time. Almost weird.
We should include that one in the big boys semi-finals of this thread's test!
FR cone v.s. ATC dome v.s. Compression driver v.s. Manger driver technology... how this can't not be interesting !
Latest DEQX 's are way better than early models.
I haven't heard the recent DEQX DAC's.....Kim is a great guy and he will be using very good DAC's now....In the early days he was all PC mind set....Now he has seen the light!😉
To cover the 80Hz to 700Hz band there is one other driver that I have used and love as much or maybe even more....But it's a beast (13Kg) and will be expensive in the USA....
http://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD158-DATASHEET-310114.pdf
I took the open baffle concept as far as I could, including suspending drivers with poly prop cord so the did not touch the cabinets.....
In an open baffle set up its easily better than the Beyma and just kills the Volt BM255.4.
The PD has the perfect Mms to Bl for a 15 inch driver, 0.24 Qts / 0.25 Qe and a fantastic Qms of 14.91!
Ultra low power compression, genuine life like dynamics (its used in stage monitors for drum kits!) and yet it has the texture and detail to melt your heart with solo Cello / string bass / vocals.....
In a VPL open baffle with the Manger above and a Beyma or PD 1550 or 1850 below it remains my reference for any free standing loudspeaker system at any price.
Cheers
D.
I haven't heard the recent DEQX DAC's.....Kim is a great guy and he will be using very good DAC's now....In the early days he was all PC mind set....Now he has seen the light!😉
To cover the 80Hz to 700Hz band there is one other driver that I have used and love as much or maybe even more....But it's a beast (13Kg) and will be expensive in the USA....
http://www.precision-devices.com/file-downloads/PD158-DATASHEET-310114.pdf
I took the open baffle concept as far as I could, including suspending drivers with poly prop cord so the did not touch the cabinets.....
In an open baffle set up its easily better than the Beyma and just kills the Volt BM255.4.
The PD has the perfect Mms to Bl for a 15 inch driver, 0.24 Qts / 0.25 Qe and a fantastic Qms of 14.91!
Ultra low power compression, genuine life like dynamics (its used in stage monitors for drum kits!) and yet it has the texture and detail to melt your heart with solo Cello / string bass / vocals.....
In a VPL open baffle with the Manger above and a Beyma or PD 1550 or 1850 below it remains my reference for any free standing loudspeaker system at any price.
Cheers
D.
Attachments
Solen is offering Precision Devices products at reasonable prices. The PD158 is 396$CAD.
Below 80Hz, not a chance that JonBocani will trade his beloved JLAudio for anything else. Mark my word 🙂
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Funny you should mention JL Audio....!
Back in 2010 I tested several JL Audio subwoofers and sold a few to some local " sound off" automotive competition guys.
They went deep and loud but in no way can you compare their performance on music material to any of the top Pro Sound drivers.
I did find one interesting JL driver that is useful for on wall or in wall home cinema installs, the attached pics show how slim it is....The cabinet was only the depth of a CD.
It's good for LF effects in small rooms but again its a long way short on musical performance.
I will post a couple of documents which go some way to explaining why Pro Sound drivers with fabric surrounds, large (4 or 5 inch coils) low Mms & high Bl, low Qts & a certain VAS to Cms / Fs ratio will always outperform a heavy coned / rubber surround driver.....
PS Xmax is the least important performance metric!
The first doc is more focused on BMR Vs conventional drivers, but the core explanation points out the elephant in the room which is using rubber bands for driver suspensions....
Also I will post a great document on voice coil thermal compression by the very talented Michael Gerstgrasser. This is a more detailed document than my efforts ( Michael is way smarter than I am!) and puts some numbers into context.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Back in 2010 I tested several JL Audio subwoofers and sold a few to some local " sound off" automotive competition guys.
They went deep and loud but in no way can you compare their performance on music material to any of the top Pro Sound drivers.
I did find one interesting JL driver that is useful for on wall or in wall home cinema installs, the attached pics show how slim it is....The cabinet was only the depth of a CD.
It's good for LF effects in small rooms but again its a long way short on musical performance.
I will post a couple of documents which go some way to explaining why Pro Sound drivers with fabric surrounds, large (4 or 5 inch coils) low Mms & high Bl, low Qts & a certain VAS to Cms / Fs ratio will always outperform a heavy coned / rubber surround driver.....
PS Xmax is the least important performance metric!
The first doc is more focused on BMR Vs conventional drivers, but the core explanation points out the elephant in the room which is using rubber bands for driver suspensions....
Also I will post a great document on voice coil thermal compression by the very talented Michael Gerstgrasser. This is a more detailed document than my efforts ( Michael is way smarter than I am!) and puts some numbers into context.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
