I have a MSB Diamond Dac with there Signature Data CD Transport. And while I don't play vinyl any longer, my friends who do and have heard this MSB stack say its hands down better than vinyl in every way.
Am I seeing it right, the insanely high prices of MSB? Why?
I heard the Shindo $25k preamp.. Complete nonsense..
I heard the Shindo $25k preamp.. Complete nonsense..
Because there are enough customers willing to pay.
There's something of a bubble being blown at the top end but equally some stuff down in 'coach class' where the VFM looks exceptionally good. For example only yesterday I found that the original designer and founder of Electrocompaniet is now doing amps (direct) under his own name 'Abrahamsen' and these look a steal for anyone who values decent build quality. Haven't listened to any mind.
IPL Acoustics Speakers Professionally Built by iQ Speakers. Abrahamsen
There's something of a bubble being blown at the top end but equally some stuff down in 'coach class' where the VFM looks exceptionally good. For example only yesterday I found that the original designer and founder of Electrocompaniet is now doing amps (direct) under his own name 'Abrahamsen' and these look a steal for anyone who values decent build quality. Haven't listened to any mind.
IPL Acoustics Speakers Professionally Built by iQ Speakers. Abrahamsen
I know where you were headed. Where do you think I was headed?
It might surprise you to know that if the DBT showed a difference *then* it becomes relevant to take a few measurements. Afterall, how do you know that the amplifiers are working as designed without measurements?
If they then show that they are working properly, then one may wish to examine them further. But certainly, listening tests won't tell you anything about why the devices under test sound different.
It might surprise you to know that if the DBT showed a difference *then* it becomes relevant to take a few measurements. Afterall, how do you know that the amplifiers are working as designed without measurements?
If they then show that they are working properly, then one may wish to examine them further. But certainly, listening tests won't tell you anything about why the devices under test sound different.
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I have build IPL speakers. I didn't know Abrahamsen had anything to do with them.
nice info abraxalito.
thx
nice info abraxalito.
thx
I'm not sure that they do have any connection other than being distributed/sold by the same guys.
The big question is, what is "working properly"? And how do you measure that, in every dimension? How do you determine what the designer intended the performance levels to be - the incredibly useful information like < 0.01% THD @1kHz at some power, perhaps?
The "examining them further" is where the real action - and what's the 'right' way to do that?
The "examining them further" is where the real action - and what's the 'right' way to do that?
abraxalito
I did get some experience with Electrocompaniet and Tandberg when also swapping Snell speakers. But I just had to try everything faster than actually listen to a lot of it. Solid it was. And I wanted loud.
I did get some experience with Electrocompaniet and Tandberg when also swapping Snell speakers. But I just had to try everything faster than actually listen to a lot of it. Solid it was. And I wanted loud.
Yes I've also 'handled' Electrocompaniet - solid would be a good way to put it, perhaps even an understatement. It felt like the thing was milled out of granite.
It is working properly when it meets manufacturers specifications. If one amp measures THD 2% and should measure 0.05% guess what? It's broken.
Stereophile has made measurements of all gear they review. If you read Linear Audio, there is an article about reviewing gear by Atkinson of Stereophile fame. It is pretty good.
Oh, and he says listen first, measure second. Because doing it the other way around will bias you.
If it's broken in a subtle way, and still meets manufacturer's specifications, but sounds terrible, what then? Or it fails badly on meeting spec's, but still sounds fine? There are all sorts of combinations ...
Yes, I start with the listening. If it sounds fine at ordinary levels, then I start to stress test, using listening to monitor. How loud can it go before power supply problems show? If I feed it recordings which are prone to sound scratchy and unpleasant on poorer systems how does it fare? I build up a mental profile of the misbehaviours without doing a single instrument measurement, and usually that gives all the information I need to proceed with trying to make it "work better".
Yes, I start with the listening. If it sounds fine at ordinary levels, then I start to stress test, using listening to monitor. How loud can it go before power supply problems show? If I feed it recordings which are prone to sound scratchy and unpleasant on poorer systems how does it fare? I build up a mental profile of the misbehaviours without doing a single instrument measurement, and usually that gives all the information I need to proceed with trying to make it "work better".
Proof's in the pudding, 😀 ... one's techniques evolve over time, you learn to look for, register markers in what you're observing - there are many tricks that are learnt on the way.
Most important is, you ignore "goodness" in the sound, you are only watching out for signs of "badness" - you do whatever it takes to make these obvious - jab the needle in to make you go, Ouch! ... not ask if you are more comfortable now than before, 🙂. When you can't hear any badness, not matter how hard you try, then you're in pretty good shape.
Most important is, you ignore "goodness" in the sound, you are only watching out for signs of "badness" - you do whatever it takes to make these obvious - jab the needle in to make you go, Ouch! ... not ask if you are more comfortable now than before, 🙂. When you can't hear any badness, not matter how hard you try, then you're in pretty good shape.
What standard trap?? Are you from hunting organization or something? 😀
My question was to find out if BigE is a type of person who makes assumption without doing anything. Seems he's not, don't know about you.
Not these particular amps (JLH & 3886), but something that is closer or more similar. I took the example because the difference in about all parameters are not small, so I hope even Marce could hear the difference (that's the point of choosing the particular amps). I have built JLH and 3886 more than 10x and still have them so it is not entirely "guessing".
It seems that you have some kind of bad experience and you expect everyone will follow the same steps? I mean, many people did stupid things, like reading a "magazine" saying that copper is brighter than copper, then they listened to copper and silver wire and biased into thinking that silver DO sound brighter, but LATER found out that they listened to the same wire.
I started "building" speakers (and repair amplifiers) when I was less than 12. When I built speakers then, not even one measurement tool was used. I only used my ears. My uncles did repair/build amps so yes I have components/stocks to try out. Listened with 47uF, then with 33uF, you get the point... I started out with ears-only builder.
But I grew up as a special kid in town, going to the best schools, studying Math and Physics. And of course, I purchased some measurement tools. And since I love programming, I like software too (sometimes build my own for my audio hobby)...
With such progression, and more than 20 years of experience (not to mention how dense the experience is), STRANGELY, I have never fell into the same path as the people above.
After being experienced with LT-Spice and such, I thought may be I would forget about my ears. Surprisingly, such experience only made me found out that ears are special. Okay I thought, may be I wasn't good enough with simulators and measurement tools, so let's see in another years... But so far nothing changed. But I'm not afraid of changes!
Listening is an important part of designing speakers (and even amplifier I guess). How do you think I got familiar with the sound of "phase mismatched", "diffraction", open loop gain, oscillation, etc?
When I heard an amp, I could say "Oh the distortion is too high, I want to compromise something else (may be damping) to make the distortion a bit lower".
I know what is going on. It's always about prejudice. But think about it like this, BigE:
(1) When you want to purchase a speaker and audition it, will you always have to measure it? Sometimes you have SUFFICIENT understanding of the quality without having to see measurement results. And how much is sufficient, it differs from person to person, you cannot assume that if you cannot hear something then there would be nobody who can.
(2) When you hear a symphony and you think "Oh, that was a beautiful violin!". Before thinking so, do you feel the need to "Oh, the violin or something was beautiful. It could be a violin, but it could also be a cello. Let's buy the video and find out, is it really violin, or I could be mistaken".
The point of above paragraph is: the need for accurate assessment differs from case to case, from people to people, from time to time...
If I heard that MediaMonkey sounded different than Foobar in my computer, so what? What if I don't care whether there is really difference or it is just a hallucination? I know that they CAN be different (control/setting options, how computer works) so I don't have the need to find out more, coz I know the required effort to do so, and I know what I will gain is not something big. I will not use the players to listen to my music anyway...
I downloaded the Media Monkey just to find out why Frank prefer that player over Foobar. Oh, yes, there are more useful features with MM. But I wont say that Frank was biased or something without listening both players by myself. Am I a prejudice person?
It depends what you understand by 'get it right' here.
Both iTunes and Audirvana can play in bit-perfect mode.
It requires a lot of effort, but its worth it when you get to a level where it sounds fantastic.
The issue with digital audiophilia is that playing music becomes an Electrical problem, especially in cases where people connect a very powerful computer directly via USB to a DAC.
The digititis people hear is mostly inherent in how digital and analog components in the digital chain operate, with concomitant noise on ground planes, RFI/EMI, jitter, packet noise at the DAC's USB receiver PHY itself affecting the DAC clock and chip (for design with chips...)
The more you tame that complex electrical interference matrix, the closer you get to what is contained in the medium.
There is a lot of great content/sound in simple Redbook.
Try the higher-rate DSD one day: DSD128, DSD256 on a DAC which does native DSD (and HQ Player or Audirvana)
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