And there's the rub ... are they sufficiently isolated? Consider this one scenario: the CPU "under load" varies the level of jitter of the bits being delivered, because of the change in electrical activity. An ideal receiver will eliminate these variations, but if it is not ideal, or the extra activity required in the receiver to adequately reduce the jitter in turn cause higher levels of noise in the DAC area, because the dejittering circuitry itself alters the "noise" spectrum as it does its job.
If everything is adequately engineered then there are no problems, definitely!! ... but what people are often hearing most likely is due to these issues.
It's okay. And I see where you are coming from because I think you are looking at it from a chip level. But that is not how it works. That is a mechanical Turk, or said plainly, what appears to be red herring and the source of many commenter's source of agitation in these discussions with you.
Here is why:
There is no "as they enter". That is like trying to observe a single photon leave a filament.
Also, they are not 1 and 0. They are modulated signal voltages, so yes, it is either logic Hi, or logic Lo. There is no in between and they always behave the same way because the signaling swing gap leaves sufficient room for variation between the two states and room for various memory states of read/write that misinterpretation is so unlikely that the only way to confuse it is to completely botch the implementation.
Finally, and I can't stress this less - they aren't part of the same circuit path. The analog load does not interact with the processor load whatsoever, not in any way. They are so far apart from each other electrically you might as well be talking about an intercontinental phone call. That is because the processor load is digital, and they are separate decoupled sources.
So, that's my reasoning why you can't take it down to the individual chip level. It's not holistic thinking of the implementation of a system. And in this system, the engineering and the logic rule.
To oversimplify, Boolean math, logic, and engineering is like Karate. To quote Mr. Miyagi:
"Either Karate - do - yes, or Karate - do - no. If Karate - do - maybe: SQUISH - like grape." 😱
That is like saying, "the string is yay long", or "the amplifier has good distortion performance" - if they're isolated, how good is the isolation? A graph of rejection performance, in dB, from DC to 10's of GHz, would be a good starting point ...
Okay, so your goal is to exhaust anyone who tries to teach you something. I understand that now.
Time for you to understand something. At this point the words you type are without weight to me because of your pedantic tactics.
It is not my job to prove you wrong, because you haven't proven anything. The burden of proof is in YOUR court. YOU are the one who has to prove it. If you want to prove it, go and plot that chart by plugging a 3.5MM into a line level out from your dac for the B- and then measure that over a plot with a modern processor running a thermal burn in program at variable loads and the full test rig.
Furthermore I doubt you understand your own folly in making such a request. You would need a full spectrum analyzer to go up to 10Ghz, which is outlandish considering NO audio reproduction will go that high. I've got above average hearing, and 15khz is about as high as most can go. The absolute best I know of is 18khz, and that what maybe infants can hear.
Game over. Come back when you have credible reproducible results that YOU have personally gathered to support your claim.
CRC right at the DAC eliminates any error. If the transfer is noisy (even to the extreme
of corruption) , the dac will request that data to be resent -
this will be preformed packet by packet.
CRC Ensures Correct Data: Analog Dialogue: Analog Devices
Same concept as our little discussion here on the forums servers. If this did not
work 100% perfect , we would not be posting.
OS
of corruption) , the dac will request that data to be resent -
this will be preformed packet by packet.
CRC Ensures Correct Data: Analog Dialogue: Analog Devices
Same concept as our little discussion here on the forums servers. If this did not
work 100% perfect , we would not be posting.
OS
Not to mention the stack of protocols and related frames, packets, encapsulation, etc. of the 7 layers of the OSI model which enables our ones and zeros to traverse the Internet, through routers, switches, firewalls, media converters, DWDM multiplexers, etc. Getting a few million bits of music from a PC to DAC in bit-perfect fashion is incredibly trivial in comparison.
And, yes, they are ones and zeroes. Calling them logic HI and logic LO is like calling milk a dairy product.
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Binely, you have totally the wrong end of the stick here, this is complete misunderstanding in communication - sorry if that's my fault, 😱.
What I'm talking about is that the circuit is impervious to interference causing audible degradation for any reason and in any fashion - I'll offer a trivial example: someone has a cell phone near an audio system, and hears squawks and mutterings from the speaker. There you have a device producing signals in the GHz range causing an audio system to misbehave - that's all I'm talking about.
Makes sense?
Wow......I only bought 1 CD in last 15 years because it could not be bought as a file. CD's are expensive, don't last very long and they take space. Much more space than a NAS.
CD's were a nice invention but why use an optical pickup, a motor and media that can be damaged when things can be done without parts that wear out ? In my country CD sales is very very low. Next thing is the same nostalgia with CD's that could also be seen at the end of the LP era. Apparently many people like stuff better when an absurd amount of time has to be spent to obtain media, availability is difficult, membership of a group is necessary, different status in society can be shown etc. Sometimes technical progress seems to be a hurdle and ignoring such developments gives certain people peace of mind. I see this a lot which I can understand as not all of us can plainly and publicly acknowledge the fact that they can't cope with things they don't grasp.
However, what I don't understand is "emotional" decisions to stick with old fashioned stuff (and often at the same time embracing "new" developments in other areas).
I know a guy that still buys DVDs to play on his 50" Full HD plasma TV just as he wants to "feel the media in his hands".....For the price he pays for a few DVDs he could buy a nice small media player (or NUC/Raspberry Pi with OpenElec) that outputs 1080p on his Full HD screen. Much better quality, much less space, easier to operate and less expensive. Win-win situation would one think...
CD's were a nice invention but why use an optical pickup, a motor and media that can be damaged when things can be done without parts that wear out ? In my country CD sales is very very low. Next thing is the same nostalgia with CD's that could also be seen at the end of the LP era. Apparently many people like stuff better when an absurd amount of time has to be spent to obtain media, availability is difficult, membership of a group is necessary, different status in society can be shown etc. Sometimes technical progress seems to be a hurdle and ignoring such developments gives certain people peace of mind. I see this a lot which I can understand as not all of us can plainly and publicly acknowledge the fact that they can't cope with things they don't grasp.
However, what I don't understand is "emotional" decisions to stick with old fashioned stuff (and often at the same time embracing "new" developments in other areas).
I know a guy that still buys DVDs to play on his 50" Full HD plasma TV just as he wants to "feel the media in his hands".....For the price he pays for a few DVDs he could buy a nice small media player (or NUC/Raspberry Pi with OpenElec) that outputs 1080p on his Full HD screen. Much better quality, much less space, easier to operate and less expensive. Win-win situation would one think...
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I have a question,
Many moons ago when I was working on remote IO and PLC control we used dongles to connect between laptops and the CPU control module.
The scenario we encountered was that some laptops would read and write data to the PLC. Some laptops would only read and not write and others would not work at all.
We called the "Professionals" in that actually designed and built the PLCs and also the maker of the dongles to find out what was happening. They initaly refused to accept the equipment was at fault and we must have a batch of "Bad" laptops.
The consensus of opinion from all parties involved was the laptops had slightly different voltages on the ports and the lower voltage would only read and not upload or write to the PLC.
Now OK I can admit that there is a point when a "0" is a "0" and when a "1" is a "1" I have not looked into it since however it was interesting at the time..it took them a while to over come the problem and they borrowed several laptops from us to do testing.
I assume this is never an issue now..? At what voltage does a "0" become a "1"?
What is the limiting effect of distance on fibre optic cable?
What is the effect of refractive index on optical interconnects?
What if any is the effect of capacitance and loading on digital hard wire connections?
Why is there a distance limit?
When it fails is it a "works does not work" situation or is there bit loss and corruption with a working connection with a failure rate?
NB I actually like digital..😀
Just for interest..I made a logic probe using some logic gates (on the same chip)<<that's important. It was a fun project and it was in my first years during initial training when I powered it up the input bits worked and drove into the second gate..but interestingly the output of the second gate would not switch.. that was voltage levels as well 😀 Interestingly we had a digital machine using logic gates that would fail every Wednesday it was so intermittent no one could find the fault I increased the supply rails by 1V guess what never failed again..
LMAO..it was a while ago but I remember everyone ripping their hair out for months..
Regards
M. Gregg
Many moons ago when I was working on remote IO and PLC control we used dongles to connect between laptops and the CPU control module.
The scenario we encountered was that some laptops would read and write data to the PLC. Some laptops would only read and not write and others would not work at all.
We called the "Professionals" in that actually designed and built the PLCs and also the maker of the dongles to find out what was happening. They initaly refused to accept the equipment was at fault and we must have a batch of "Bad" laptops.
The consensus of opinion from all parties involved was the laptops had slightly different voltages on the ports and the lower voltage would only read and not upload or write to the PLC.
Now OK I can admit that there is a point when a "0" is a "0" and when a "1" is a "1" I have not looked into it since however it was interesting at the time..it took them a while to over come the problem and they borrowed several laptops from us to do testing.
I assume this is never an issue now..? At what voltage does a "0" become a "1"?
What is the limiting effect of distance on fibre optic cable?
What is the effect of refractive index on optical interconnects?
What if any is the effect of capacitance and loading on digital hard wire connections?
Why is there a distance limit?
When it fails is it a "works does not work" situation or is there bit loss and corruption with a working connection with a failure rate?
NB I actually like digital..😀
Just for interest..I made a logic probe using some logic gates (on the same chip)<<that's important. It was a fun project and it was in my first years during initial training when I powered it up the input bits worked and drove into the second gate..but interestingly the output of the second gate would not switch.. that was voltage levels as well 😀 Interestingly we had a digital machine using logic gates that would fail every Wednesday it was so intermittent no one could find the fault I increased the supply rails by 1V guess what never failed again..
LMAO..it was a while ago but I remember everyone ripping their hair out for months..
Regards
M. Gregg
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I think I do. Putting on a record is a bit of a ritual, and rituals are as stubborn as they are useless. Besides that, there is something to be said for the idea that you can put on some music without Google or another data collector knowing about it, and serving you tailored ads. But a NAS does fine, if the latter is your concern.
I still buy CD's, but very often second hand. They get read exactly once, when they are ripped. They are then stored indefinitely. The ripped music gets stored on a HDD, which is also regularly backed up. A moderately effective storage and backup scheme reduces the risk of loss of your collection to about the same order of magnitude of the risk of your house burning down, and burning the CD collection in the process. So probably I don't contribute to any music sales statistics.
I can rip the CD to play at work, I can compress to play on my mp3 I can play in the car which has a CD player. I cannot listen to a download in the car unless I burn a CD, buy a new stereo or buy a new car. I would rather buy more music than a new car...
That is silly as DVDs are lower resolution than most TVs. You need bluray for that. Streaming/download services are very variable and my bandwidth is limited so for me a bluray makes a lot of sense. Oh and my blueray player does CDs and SACD as well.
Well I have to admit they never told us about rust did they?
I do tend to listen to digital most of the time now..the HDD does get rid the the expensive CD player and the record deck. I even stream music with a Lindy..😀..you have to accept that its happened.
I haven't seen a DIY computer to DAC connection..(Wireless) To compete with Chord..
Regards
M. Gregg
I can't see how a decompressed flac file sitting in ram , which is identical to a wave file sitting in the same ram will sound different. Any processing at this point during playback will be identical for both files so all the noise etc will also be the same.
My biggest problem with buying files from iTunes is I feel shafted. There almost the Same price as CDs. But unlike CDs there's no manufacturing, shipping, warehousing, retail store, or all the jobs that were needed, and the economic impact. So all the money that used to go there (3/4 of the price of the cd) now just goes in apples pocket. Not to mention the compressed files apple markets as superior. Apple sucks.
Oh, you mean storing downloads on a Hard Disk Drive?
One of the big things about "digital" is the ability to make copies of the original recording (whether from CD, DVD, download, whatever) that are "just as perfect as" (or no more imperfect than) the original, and do so quickly (many times real time) and cheaply (many times less than the cost of a retail music CD or download). With this, backups are a no-brainer, and you don't have to buy and record reel-to-reel tapes or cassettes as "backups" for LPs (we older folks did this, or at least knew people who did it).
An seeming irony of "digital" is hard disk drives aren't reliable long-term, yet the information they contain can be reliably saved.
Things are easy enough to exchange formats that it almost doesn't matter if a recording is on a CD or a downloaded file.
billshurv- for less money than a couple of months worth of gas for a lot of vehicles, you could possibly update the in-dash head unit to a model with USB input, or even Bluetooth to stream direct from a phone or tablet .
Many of the mainstream aftermarket car audio makers have altogether eschewed mechanical stages - my Kenwood is almost 5yrs old, I think, and has only ever played a CD and DVD once each.
Many of the mainstream aftermarket car audio makers have altogether eschewed mechanical stages - my Kenwood is almost 5yrs old, I think, and has only ever played a CD and DVD once each.
My first car had a cassette player. That was 2001. 13 years later, I finally sold the car. With a still brand new cassette player.
But why should I? The. Current double din unit works, gets radio and has a 6 CD changer as well as matching the rest of the car. Any replacement would not match and probably have some chavvy messages scrolling across the display all the time. I would rather spend that money on music.
Oh and it plays cassettes as well.
Oh and it plays cassettes as well.
First thing I did when I bought my new (to me) truck. Pulled the existing unit and installed a JVC unit with a USB port. $78 (half price at Canadian Tire).
Literally thousands of songs on a 16GB USB stick. Well worth the cost, IMO. Local radio all sucks.
The only thing I really miss is the speed-controlled volume. Oh well.
It has gone way further than discussed. 😱
(below)
I know people in car even , that have the passenger (hopefully) watch a 1080P
+ 320kbs or sacd audio at the same time.
At home , "just" music is kind of boring. I'd rather watch a symphony or the studio
released video of my favorite music in full hi- fidelity.
The comments on the decompression of JUST audio , a modern processor
can decompress or stream 1080p + something of FLAC quality with 10% CPU.
FLAC C8 or MP3 is <1% (idle ).
OS
(below)
I know people in car even , that have the passenger (hopefully) watch a 1080P
+ 320kbs or sacd audio at the same time.
At home , "just" music is kind of boring. I'd rather watch a symphony or the studio
released video of my favorite music in full hi- fidelity.
The comments on the decompression of JUST audio , a modern processor
can decompress or stream 1080p + something of FLAC quality with 10% CPU.
FLAC C8 or MP3 is <1% (idle ).
OS
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