This Multi-Way sub-forum seems to be the busiest on diyAudio. The topics change quickly because it's such a catch-all, and it's hard to sustain a dialogue on a single topic when there are so many threads. I think it would be helpful to open up some new categories so that "Multi-Way" isn't so frenetic.
I would like to see two new categories in "Loudspeakers": Line Arrays and Active Speakers. Both of these designs are getting more DIY attention in recent years, and these topics aren't well addressed by the existing Loudspeaker categories.
For example, I've just completed the board layout for a line array amplifier that has 20 channels of DSP with delay on each channel. Sure, I could discuss the DSP in "Digital Line Level" or the amps in "Class D", and these are 3-way line arrays, so "Multi-Way" would be a relevant category. But the discussion really belongs in a Line Array category that doesn't exist. There are a lot of interesting things to discuss about a line array with software-programmable "curvature", but I don't know where such posts belong. I've had similar issues with other active speakers--you can either post in "Multi-Way" and watch the post get buried in a day or two, or just discuss the electronics separately, but that really limits the discussion. And I've spent a lot of time working on design software for system-level design of active speakers, and this topic really doesn't fit well on this forum, either. And, of course, the fastest growing segment in home audio systems right now is the soundbar, which are active systems. I've got a number of soundbar/Bluetooth designs that I haven't shared on diyAudio because I don't see a forum where this topic is a good fit.
So in order to help those of interested in these topics connect with others and share DIY experiences, I'd like to see "Loudspeakers" get some new sub-forums. Any thoughts?
I would like to see two new categories in "Loudspeakers": Line Arrays and Active Speakers. Both of these designs are getting more DIY attention in recent years, and these topics aren't well addressed by the existing Loudspeaker categories.
For example, I've just completed the board layout for a line array amplifier that has 20 channels of DSP with delay on each channel. Sure, I could discuss the DSP in "Digital Line Level" or the amps in "Class D", and these are 3-way line arrays, so "Multi-Way" would be a relevant category. But the discussion really belongs in a Line Array category that doesn't exist. There are a lot of interesting things to discuss about a line array with software-programmable "curvature", but I don't know where such posts belong. I've had similar issues with other active speakers--you can either post in "Multi-Way" and watch the post get buried in a day or two, or just discuss the electronics separately, but that really limits the discussion. And I've spent a lot of time working on design software for system-level design of active speakers, and this topic really doesn't fit well on this forum, either. And, of course, the fastest growing segment in home audio systems right now is the soundbar, which are active systems. I've got a number of soundbar/Bluetooth designs that I haven't shared on diyAudio because I don't see a forum where this topic is a good fit.
So in order to help those of interested in these topics connect with others and share DIY experiences, I'd like to see "Loudspeakers" get some new sub-forums. Any thoughts?
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I don't know if active should have it's own category but Horn/wave guide might be another good one as there has been quite a few of those too.
I have a Line Array thread over in the full range forum but somehow feel it isn't true to the original forum views there... As it's also active in a way, even though it has no crossover where would I put it 🙂. I'd say a Line Array is a Line Array, passive or actively corrected.
I have a Line Array thread over in the full range forum but somehow feel it isn't true to the original forum views there... As it's also active in a way, even though it has no crossover where would I put it 🙂. I'd say a Line Array is a Line Array, passive or actively corrected.
Sure divided in active or passive as it impacts selection of drivers.
Told you, it's messy 🙂
Regards
Would a line array sub-forum receive enough posts to get above critical mass? Waveguides and crossovers (whether active or passive) are a part of the design of multi-way speakers. Should someone discussing the design of a multiway speaker split the discussion between three forums? Horn speakers rather than waveguides is perhaps more of a self contained topic and a possible candidate for it's own sub-forum.
Line arrays are fairly well defined, but i have seen very long threads with varied opinions on what an active speaker is.
dave
line array: no good, cylindrical source, we want spherical
active : no good, impossible to isolate mechanics from electronics
horns : no good, they "curve" the sound in a different manner
Dustbin😱
active : no good, impossible to isolate mechanics from electronics
horns : no good, they "curve" the sound in a different manner
Dustbin😱
* A high-efficiency forum would be welcome, since they are different types of speakers than cone/dome or cone/ribbon direct radiators. Maybe starting at 95 dB/meter/watt (2%) or higher efficiency?
A HE forum would be useful for owners of moderate-power amplifiers as well as people who like very wide dynamic range. It leaves room for discussion of vintage restoration projects, applying professional drivers to domestic applications, and various blue-sky projects. It would be agnostic about horns, waveguides, AMT's, or other ways to achieve high efficiency.
* I'd also like to suggest a separate active/DSP loudspeaker forum; this is a specialized area for PC-based systems as well as pro gear with active-analog or DSP functions, where people can talk about pro signal processing, multichannel DACs, preferred multichannel amps, and software-based PC algorithms. Rather than have people endlessly (and pointlessly) argue the merits and disadvantages of passive vs active/DSP approach, just send them to the right forum.
The proposed active/DSP forum would be a discussion area for people who have dipole speakers that require substantial EQ, conventional multiway direct-radiator systems, and pro-based high-efficiency systems ... basically, any speaker system where time delay and equalization is an integral part of the design.
Yes, there's overlap between the HE forum and the active/DSP forum; that's fine, just so long as there are appropriate discussion spaces for the different approaches to speaker design.
A HE forum would be useful for owners of moderate-power amplifiers as well as people who like very wide dynamic range. It leaves room for discussion of vintage restoration projects, applying professional drivers to domestic applications, and various blue-sky projects. It would be agnostic about horns, waveguides, AMT's, or other ways to achieve high efficiency.
* I'd also like to suggest a separate active/DSP loudspeaker forum; this is a specialized area for PC-based systems as well as pro gear with active-analog or DSP functions, where people can talk about pro signal processing, multichannel DACs, preferred multichannel amps, and software-based PC algorithms. Rather than have people endlessly (and pointlessly) argue the merits and disadvantages of passive vs active/DSP approach, just send them to the right forum.
The proposed active/DSP forum would be a discussion area for people who have dipole speakers that require substantial EQ, conventional multiway direct-radiator systems, and pro-based high-efficiency systems ... basically, any speaker system where time delay and equalization is an integral part of the design.
Yes, there's overlap between the HE forum and the active/DSP forum; that's fine, just so long as there are appropriate discussion spaces for the different approaches to speaker design.
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Neil Davis
Subdividing Multiway into closer defined threads is a good idea.
Easier to stay on topic and cross-reference to your needs.
Several have mention the need for a high-efficience catagory f.ex.
Many are just apprehensive about suggesting a new thread and sort of being "responsible" for the thread.
Subdividing Multiway into closer defined threads is a good idea.
Easier to stay on topic and cross-reference to your needs.
Several have mention the need for a high-efficience catagory f.ex.
Many are just apprehensive about suggesting a new thread and sort of being "responsible" for the thread.
I like this idea. HE would include line arrays and provide an area on this board to discuss some of the more esoteric loudspeaker designs that don't fit well into any of the existing diyAudio thread categories. I agree that an HE forum would have broad enough appeal to ensure good participation.
I agree with this, also. There is a separate thread to discuss DSP components (Digital Line Level) and there are amplifier threads, but nowhere to discuss system-level active loudspeaker design and associated tools. This category might also off-load the class-D forum, which has those long discussions on Boominator systems that go well beyond class D issues. It would also address the rapidly-growing sound bar and Bluetooth/wireless speaker segments. I think this would become a very active forum and help keep the existing forums stay focused on their own topics.
I agree that it would be nice to have a few more focused threads that incorporate some of what all of you have just stated. I for one would appreciate a thread integrating dsp, bluetooth and active speaker control.
At the same time I think that if you word your thread title well that also can help. Thread titles can make it much easier to find something, sometimes they are hard to understand without reading through a bunch of posts to see what they are truly addressing.
I'm not so sure I agree that high efficiency itself warrants a separate thread from any other dynamic driver discussions. Perhaps a hybrid HE/ vacuum tube thread would answer Lynn's needs? He speakers don't necessarily mean vacuum tube amplification so this would make that a strange thread split in my eyes. And where does the requirement of a line array say you have to use HE speakers, if you have already jumped to multi-way line arrays that could comprise most any type of dynamic drivers?
At the same time I think that if you word your thread title well that also can help. Thread titles can make it much easier to find something, sometimes they are hard to understand without reading through a bunch of posts to see what they are truly addressing.
I'm not so sure I agree that high efficiency itself warrants a separate thread from any other dynamic driver discussions. Perhaps a hybrid HE/ vacuum tube thread would answer Lynn's needs? He speakers don't necessarily mean vacuum tube amplification so this would make that a strange thread split in my eyes. And where does the requirement of a line array say you have to use HE speakers, if you have already jumped to multi-way line arrays that could comprise most any type of dynamic drivers?
Careful in what you wish for.
Subdividing of Topics seems a fairly widespread phenomena on open mouth Forums of ALL descriptions.
Usually at the persistent instigation by a solitary individual, who wants their fave topic/hobby horse front and centre.
Sometimes it works.. attracting other like minded individuals, occasionally even enough people to build a viable/vibrant subgroup.
Often it does not... merely spreading information across a wide spectrum and decimating the original forum.
G'luck
Subdividing of Topics seems a fairly widespread phenomena on open mouth Forums of ALL descriptions.
Usually at the persistent instigation by a solitary individual, who wants their fave topic/hobby horse front and centre.
Sometimes it works.. attracting other like minded individuals, occasionally even enough people to build a viable/vibrant subgroup.
Often it does not... merely spreading information across a wide spectrum and decimating the original forum.
G'luck
Most line arrays end up being HE, even without using HE drivers. Jim Griffen provides this formula for the efficiency gain: Efficiency Gain = 10*log (Number of Drivers Driven). With most line arrays there are enough drivers to put the system into the HE category.
Of course, the reasons for using a line array aren't always to achieve high efficiency, but having a HE forum would at least provide a logical place to discuss them. Right now line array discussions don't really fit well in any existing forum.
Neil,
Yes I understand the basic premise of a line array is directed at directivity control. I have no problems with the basic idea until we get to the extreme high frequencies and then this falls apart due to lobing and comb filter effects no matter the distance from device to device. This is where I think a hybrid of the line array and single device becomes necessary to make these systems work to the best possible effect.
Yes I understand the basic premise of a line array is directed at directivity control. I have no problems with the basic idea until we get to the extreme high frequencies and then this falls apart due to lobing and comb filter effects no matter the distance from device to device. This is where I think a hybrid of the line array and single device becomes necessary to make these systems work to the best possible effect.
More sub-forums makes plenty of sense as far as categorization, but I count twelve threads in the multi-way forum with posts in the last twelve hours, and that's just not nearly enough to consider splitting things up more if you ask me.
I takes seconds to scan twelve threads and see if I want to read anything. It would take a lot longer if I had to click around four or five sub-forums just to see them, and the result is that I usually wouldn't bother clicking some of them. I think that would be the average result for everyone: no time saved, but less reading and less discussing. Sure I don't want to have to read around threads about amp PCBs when I want to read about speakers, but I prefer reading around anything to navigating a maze every time I just want to see what's happening around here.
I takes seconds to scan twelve threads and see if I want to read anything. It would take a lot longer if I had to click around four or five sub-forums just to see them, and the result is that I usually wouldn't bother clicking some of them. I think that would be the average result for everyone: no time saved, but less reading and less discussing. Sure I don't want to have to read around threads about amp PCBs when I want to read about speakers, but I prefer reading around anything to navigating a maze every time I just want to see what's happening around here.
I like the sound of that, yet we've already got those things spread between "digital line level" and the loudspeakers section, and maybe "software tools" too (? I forget that one exists most of the time so I'm not sure), so do we really want to spread them even thinner?
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See http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...kes-speaker-sound-dynamic-22.html#post4349595
I see more than a few HE folks that would otherwise post here avoiding this forum due to the direct-radiator vs. horn arguments and otherwise-HE-thread hijackings. I tire of the DR-HE arguments myself. It's better just to create a separate HE sub-forum to avoid those constant arguments.
An active (DSP-based) loudspeaker sub-forum is also a very good suggestion, IMHO. I also see many "passive audiophile purists" that also seem to hijack these threads with passive xover arguments and analog active crossovers having no real ability to do serious time alignment. This is also very tiring.
I'd like to go to one place for each discussion where I don't have to argue audio/loudspeaker apologetics.
Chris
I see more than a few HE folks that would otherwise post here avoiding this forum due to the direct-radiator vs. horn arguments and otherwise-HE-thread hijackings. I tire of the DR-HE arguments myself. It's better just to create a separate HE sub-forum to avoid those constant arguments.
An active (DSP-based) loudspeaker sub-forum is also a very good suggestion, IMHO. I also see many "passive audiophile purists" that also seem to hijack these threads with passive xover arguments and analog active crossovers having no real ability to do serious time alignment. This is also very tiring.
I'd like to go to one place for each discussion where I don't have to argue audio/loudspeaker apologetics.
Chris
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Dumptruck,
I think what Lynn is asking for would be an active speaker electronics thread melding all of these different threads together, rather than split it up more. Right now I have to read multiple threads on power amp, electronic xo's, dsp, rephase software, embedded devices and other threads to try and put all of this together. I think there are enough of us at this point trying to make sense of all of this and unify this all that it would be a well followed category.
I think what Lynn is asking for would be an active speaker electronics thread melding all of these different threads together, rather than split it up more. Right now I have to read multiple threads on power amp, electronic xo's, dsp, rephase software, embedded devices and other threads to try and put all of this together. I think there are enough of us at this point trying to make sense of all of this and unify this all that it would be a well followed category.
I think a high efficiency sub-forum is a reasonable suggestion because such speakers are well defined with only a modest overlap with conventional multi-way home speakers.
I don't think a separate sub-forum for active crossover multi-way speakers is a good idea. Would the current sub-forum become the passive crossover multi-way speaker forum? Which forum would hold the main multi-way speaker design part that is independent of the type of crossover? Both or just one of them?
I don't think a separate sub-forum for active crossover multi-way speakers is a good idea. Would the current sub-forum become the passive crossover multi-way speaker forum? Which forum would hold the main multi-way speaker design part that is independent of the type of crossover? Both or just one of them?
While it IS common these days to use DSP for active speakers, and PCs can be used for that, there are some subtle differences between:
- analog active crossovers for active speakers
- DSP (hardware based, e.g. ADAU1701 or other DSP ICs) for active speakers
- DSP (software/PC based, e.g. Linux audio with plugins, etc.) for active speakers
Where would "hybrid" crossover systems fall - systems that use a passive crossover for midrange-tweeter and an active crossover for (sub)woofer-midrange and EQ, baffle step compensation, etc.?
That forum is for "Source and Line" stuff like a CD player, etc. not for "in stream" processing like a DSP crossover system.
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