The brain is a fickle organ and easily fooled. If you have just spent a few month lovingly crafting your new DAC it will of course sound 'better'. Generally the close to neutral a component comes the more golden ears will say it is 'dull' and 'lacking excitement'. If the golden ears prefer extra disortion or mangled Frequency response that is fine, but it is not true to what was put down in the original performance.
The fact that in Audio there is no reference standard as there is for film does not help matters.
The fact that in Audio there is no reference standard as there is for film does not help matters.
Do you remember if high rez was used ? because one problem could be the cd format deficiencies. One thing i have to say.
Today the soundtracks of movies sound very very well.
So i am sure good digital is possible. But i guess it is always high-rez format for movies, non redbook format for sure.
Even 16/48 to me sounds better than 16/44.1 ... i am quite sure of this.
Is more flowing. More musical.
Thanks again, gino
Thanks for the precious advice.
I think that the big debate is about the correlation between measurements and listening impressions. Someone even does not carry out any measurement at all ... only listening tests.
And it is true that even expensive units sometimes have worse performance in the lab ... higher distortion, more noise than cheap ones.
However i get the message. Do not rely a lot on reviews.
Regards, gino
Again there have been long informative discussions on the various formats and bit depth... Std. CD beats LP and Tape hands down for dynamic range etc. I am hoping to download some higher res stuff (24bit) to compare.
Personally 16/44.1 I find is much better than LP for such things but as I have said I listen to both when I get chance as I have many old LPs that I cannot find/afford to download digital versions....
I also tend to listen and enjoy the music, I know my listening rooms, choice of gear is not perfect so I tend not to worry, when I have more time/room/money then I want to upgrade and do some proper room treatment, as I believe it is here that I will get the biggest gains.
My perfect world would be a neutral system as accurate as possible for some listening and gear comparison and my valve based SET, OB speaker set-up that I know is flawed but I love to listen to it.🙂
For colours and photography you can use a GretagMacbeth chart and software to get a defined reference.
Personally 16/44.1 I find is much better than LP for such things but as I have said I listen to both when I get chance as I have many old LPs that I cannot find/afford to download digital versions....
I also tend to listen and enjoy the music, I know my listening rooms, choice of gear is not perfect so I tend not to worry, when I have more time/room/money then I want to upgrade and do some proper room treatment, as I believe it is here that I will get the biggest gains.
My perfect world would be a neutral system as accurate as possible for some listening and gear comparison and my valve based SET, OB speaker set-up that I know is flawed but I love to listen to it.🙂
For colours and photography you can use a GretagMacbeth chart and software to get a defined reference.
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+2 I used to fret a lot more than I do now. But one day I realised I met one of the classic definitions of an audiophile in that my rig was worth more than my investment in music. I now have (mumble) TB on the server and 1200 odd plastic pizzas so the balance is redressed.
Thanks a lot for the very valuable advice and helpful information.
But let me tell a little story.
I had a 970bx Rotel cd player at the time. I was continuosly changing pieces of the system any of them ... amps, cable, speakers ... in search of a sound that was musical with my preferred cds. No way. The sound was not convincing at all.
One day with a friend we put in the system a plastic Pioneer turntable, one of those turntables that if you put the cigarette on it it becomes just a blob of bad smelling plastic. The cartdrige was i guess a 10 euro thing.
My friend brought a cheap Nad phono preamp and we started to listen some LPs.
The very same system that was quite unmusical with the cd was sounding good. There was music in the room like never experienced from the cd.
I swear. There was noise but also music.
Since then i had a similar experience even with a yamaha cassette player ! but never with the cd ... never. I am still looking for.
Okkei ... i know that plastic record players from Pioneer are famous for sounding very good ... 😀
Regards, gino
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In my system I have spent time and money on both the vinyl and digital side so both are in pretty decent shape. Both better than ever. I find it now depends more on the quality of the recording now much more than whether I am using TT or DAC for source.
I would have to say though the best I've heard from the system to date was from the vinyl source.
I would have to say though the best I've heard from the system to date was from the vinyl source.
Hi and sorry i promise the last one.
A pray for the Forumers who enjoy a good digital sound from systems based on PCs.
Could you list your digital source please ?
Thanks a lot sincerely
Regards, gino
A pray for the Forumers who enjoy a good digital sound from systems based on PCs.
Could you list your digital source please ?
Thanks a lot sincerely
Regards, gino
This is a common experience, gino, and there are clear reasons for that. The primary one is that the type, I repeat, the type of distortion that often occurs with using a digital source is far more unpleasant to the ear, even though it may not be obviously audible. When speaking about digital sound be careful not to confuse imperfect electrical behaviour in the purely digital side as being a direct cause - as marce is pointing out, digital circuitry doesn't care if the electrical behaviour is a bit rough: the circuit either works or it doesn't, there is no inbetween! But, at some point that digital signal has to become analogue, for the normal amplifier to deal with it - and it's in the conversion area and everything after that, which is all pure analogue, that the damage, if any, will be done. The digital circuitry, and the power supplies in that box are likely suspects introducing interference effects that disturb the analogue side of things - and give you that sometimes flat, uninteresting, "digital" sound.
The answer? Not obvious, if it was then people would not be still arguing about it. Key thing, do not think that the right CD player, DAC, music server will always make it work well - this is very much a system issue - find a combination that eliminates any audible problems, to your hearing, is a good approach.
Hi Frank thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
Your words confirms my feelings but also listening impression.
Sometimes i read that high resolution is key for a good digital sound.
Not true. I had the opportunity to listen to a very old Grundig cd 7500 cd player at a vintage audio fair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N428fRQ8tWg
I understand that it does not reach even 14 bits of resolution. Still i heard an amazing rendering of a piano ... very very good.
It was just 250 USD ... but without remote control.
When i decided to buy it it was already gone.
This to say that digital is tricky. It is not straightforward.
Maybe as someone says it is a matter of getting the right amount and type of distortion we like ? 🙄
Uhm ... dont think so. There is something going on.
Anyway i feel to be close to my final goal that is decent sound out of a computer, any computer that works.
I am focusing usb to spdif converters these days.
I am stuck with AES/EBU connection that to me sounds more relaxed while keeping all the detail.
These converters are very handy because they allow to use any dac around with the correct connections. And dacs are everywhere these days.
In my experience a decent dac when fed with a good digital signal sounds at least decent. Satisfactory.
Thanks a lot again.
Have a nice day, gino
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IME, the analog stage following the DAC has more influence than most DAC chips. Some have measurable high order distortion (among other things) that leads to the harsh sound that some many complain of.
I heard a cheap little Goldstar CD player modified with a tube output stage in the 1980s. The Goldstar digital section was just fine, the analog had been the problem. 🙂
I heard a cheap little Goldstar CD player modified with a tube output stage in the 1980s. The Goldstar digital section was just fine, the analog had been the problem. 🙂
Not cynical methodical actually, I don't chase demons only real problems, and this one comes up again and again, all I am asking is for information regarding rather than speculation and make believe.
This is how to solve these problems properly....engineer a solution.
This is how to solve these problems properly....engineer a solution.
The 'distortions' are called noise modulation. If you're new to the concept then you could do worse than start by reading Lipshitz's paper on why 1bit audio (aka DSD) is flawed to acquire some background - then ask yourself how DSD got to be an established format when its mathematically broken?
PDM schemes were around long before Sony came up with a storage standard using it. Given its almost impossible to get multibit DACs new DS is the way to go. All depends how much ultrasonic noise shaping scares you. But given how clean the measured output of modern DACs is I for one am happy to just use what is produced.
'Almost impossible' - methinks you're over prone to hype. Schitt just did the 'almost impossible' in getting DAC chips for their latest did they?
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