70g weight did the job along with greasing the path taken by the fishing line. Easy adjustment of the weight... If the turn table won't spin backwards when off, then the weight string is too short and the idler is still engaged.
On the feedback side of things, wrapping my connections with grounded braided wire over the insulation got rid of everything up to very high volume.
Now to listen
Dan
On the feedback side of things, wrapping my connections with grounded braided wire over the insulation got rid of everything up to very high volume.
Now to listen
Dan
amazing what weight can do compared to a spring...
no need for damping material /spring insets or whatever else. yes, not as convenient but the increase in performance is well worth it.
no need for damping material /spring insets or whatever else. yes, not as convenient but the increase in performance is well worth it.
Solution to Dual motor hum
This has aggravated me through the latter parts of this build; no matter what I read know one had a solution to get rid of stubborn hum in old Dual motors like the one in my 1210 (and i read numerous people say they had one quite motor and several noisy as if they where like it from new)
Well, after multiple strip down, clean and lubes, culminating with drilling out the rivets replacing the worn felt and re-lubing -the hum was not even slightly improved. Sewing machine oil through to synthetic w30 also made no improvement either.
Then using google translate I found this forum thread:
Dual 1015 Motorgeräusche - DUAL << Plattenspieler und Plattenwechsler >> DUAL - Dual-Board.de
The outcome... I had to touch the motor pulley to see if it was spinning!!! 😱
So what I did is:
Drill out the rivets holding the bearings in their mount, clean them with lighter fluid -washing away all of the dead felt/foam. Then cut new felt and soak the whole bearing assembly in sewing machine oil. To reassemble I used brass nut and bolts (steel would be fine as the whole thing is ferrous) with a small locking washer.
Now the important bit ... don't over tighten the bearings, they should be lose enough that you can gently swivel them in their sockets with a screwdriver. It seems the original rivets are already to tight as given the accumulated gunk and varnish in there the bearings once dried up and out of alignment with the shaft just rub noisily!
When reassembling leave the main bolts that hold the bearings to the motor loose. Wiggle everything especially the motor shaft so that the bearings relax into position. I noticed that once this is done the motor spins freely and for longer than expected... you'll know once you have it right. Now tighten the main bolts up but not too tight.
Optional improvement:
The isolation rubber at the top of the motor is in too halves. Remove the bottom halve and replace it with thick felt. The motor is now hanging from the top half with the felt cushioning any vibrations. The motor will be steady enough that the idler will not push it out of alignment.
Hey presto, quiet motor!
This has aggravated me through the latter parts of this build; no matter what I read know one had a solution to get rid of stubborn hum in old Dual motors like the one in my 1210 (and i read numerous people say they had one quite motor and several noisy as if they where like it from new)
Well, after multiple strip down, clean and lubes, culminating with drilling out the rivets replacing the worn felt and re-lubing -the hum was not even slightly improved. Sewing machine oil through to synthetic w30 also made no improvement either.
Then using google translate I found this forum thread:
Dual 1015 Motorgeräusche - DUAL << Plattenspieler und Plattenwechsler >> DUAL - Dual-Board.de
The outcome... I had to touch the motor pulley to see if it was spinning!!! 😱
So what I did is:
Drill out the rivets holding the bearings in their mount, clean them with lighter fluid -washing away all of the dead felt/foam. Then cut new felt and soak the whole bearing assembly in sewing machine oil. To reassemble I used brass nut and bolts (steel would be fine as the whole thing is ferrous) with a small locking washer.
Now the important bit ... don't over tighten the bearings, they should be lose enough that you can gently swivel them in their sockets with a screwdriver. It seems the original rivets are already to tight as given the accumulated gunk and varnish in there the bearings once dried up and out of alignment with the shaft just rub noisily!
When reassembling leave the main bolts that hold the bearings to the motor loose. Wiggle everything especially the motor shaft so that the bearings relax into position. I noticed that once this is done the motor spins freely and for longer than expected... you'll know once you have it right. Now tighten the main bolts up but not too tight.
Optional improvement:
The isolation rubber at the top of the motor is in too halves. Remove the bottom halve and replace it with thick felt. The motor is now hanging from the top half with the felt cushioning any vibrations. The motor will be steady enough that the idler will not push it out of alignment.
Hey presto, quiet motor!
Wow! I am impressed! I would have not imagined using an older tables 'Type' as 'idler drive' to spin LPs! Good Job guys!
Just acquired a 1215 for free…means I won't have to tear up my 1009, which just doesn't seem like the right thing to do somehow. Hope the motor is ok, obviously.
Excellent! Motors are pretty bullet proof from everything I've seen and experienced. Even if seized you should be able to get it going again.
The idler wheel is what you really have to be gentle with. I ended up putting mine in a drill and using a metal nail file to get rid of a slight flat spot. Any slight decrease in size makes no difference due to the wonders of pitch control.
I guess idler wheel size doesn't make any speed difference. Idlers just transfer rotational movement from Pulley to platter ID. It may affects torque though.
Best Regards.
Best Regards.
Its still a gear in the drive train! but what I took off would be nothing in the realm of things.
as simple as a hammer
Hi guys,
phivates: Great to see you here...
Any 12XX idler is a great candidate for stripping if it was essentially free or low cost. They are good in their own right, but some (like the 1229) shouldn't be messed with too much as they are quite a bit more rare than the lower models, and have a fairly high market value. If a changer is required you can do a lot worse than any of the old Duals. And the older 10XX models are getting rarer by the minute so I agree with you there.
The Dual motors are about as simple as a hammer and are pretty much as durable as one. Too bad all of the changer junk was added, a nice simple single play Dual would be great to discover.
Hi guys,
phivates: Great to see you here...
Any 12XX idler is a great candidate for stripping if it was essentially free or low cost. They are good in their own right, but some (like the 1229) shouldn't be messed with too much as they are quite a bit more rare than the lower models, and have a fairly high market value. If a changer is required you can do a lot worse than any of the old Duals. And the older 10XX models are getting rarer by the minute so I agree with you there.
The Dual motors are about as simple as a hammer and are pretty much as durable as one. Too bad all of the changer junk was added, a nice simple single play Dual would be great to discover.
I actually have a 1229 that I did completely strip, cut the metal plate to remove the tonearm mount and stripped off all the automated parts (kinda regret removing the arm!). Mounted into a heavy plywood plinth somewhat like a lenco rebuild, made a DIY well-tempered clone tonearm. Big improvement on the overall sound, much tighter bass and overall very quiet presentation. Nowhere near the level of my lenco unfortunately, which I have only really begun to modify - just replinthed for now.
Lenco vs. Dual
fmelindy:My suggestion concerning the 1229 is that it is quite highly valued and is becoming quite rare, thus perhaps not a great table to mess with. The idea here is to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so to speak.
I cannot recall even hearing a Lenco, or any of the other idler "greats" such as the TD124, Neat or any others. This project was actually inspired by a phone conversation that I had with Jean Nantais himself a few years ago. His intent was not to drive the Lenco market into over-drive but to encourage others to try similar ideas on other tables as well. He began with ELAC tts, which according to him had a great bearing.
fmelindy:My suggestion concerning the 1229 is that it is quite highly valued and is becoming quite rare, thus perhaps not a great table to mess with. The idea here is to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so to speak.
I cannot recall even hearing a Lenco, or any of the other idler "greats" such as the TD124, Neat or any others. This project was actually inspired by a phone conversation that I had with Jean Nantais himself a few years ago. His intent was not to drive the Lenco market into over-drive but to encourage others to try similar ideas on other tables as well. He began with ELAC tts, which according to him had a great bearing.
Other improvements?
So in line with Stews thread, what other improvements can we make to these old turntables?
I have added a cork mat to mine cut from a floor tile, I found this was a very effective upgrade from the old 10" plastic/rubber mat. It also allowed me to better support 12" records whilst improving the sonic balance and separation significantly. My first attempt was cut using a craft knife and an old record as a template. The current version was cut with a plunge router, and includes a recess for the record label and a grove underneath for the outside lip of the platter.
An other improvement was the record clamp weight (yes it's an Ikea candle stick holder with an old 45 adaptor puck wedged inside the base) at 200g it sounds great reinforcing the bass without colouring the sound.
So in line with Stews thread, what other improvements can we make to these old turntables?
I have added a cork mat to mine cut from a floor tile, I found this was a very effective upgrade from the old 10" plastic/rubber mat. It also allowed me to better support 12" records whilst improving the sonic balance and separation significantly. My first attempt was cut using a craft knife and an old record as a template. The current version was cut with a plunge router, and includes a recess for the record label and a grove underneath for the outside lip of the platter.
An other improvement was the record clamp weight (yes it's an Ikea candle stick holder with an old 45 adaptor puck wedged inside the base) at 200g it sounds great reinforcing the bass without colouring the sound.
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Interesting Dual main bearing observations
Found this here http://http://www.freewebs.com/strictly_vinyl/
"I enjoyed your site. You're wrong however about the Duals' sleeve on ball bearing not being good enough for serious listening. The sleeve of a Dual, is machined from solid brass to the nth degree,
(if you would like I can copy the white paper explaining exactly how this was designed to work which is complete with full bearing tolerance specifications. No expense was spared on this design which is why is went out of production. It was far to costly to produce)
and this platter sleeve is actually engineered to work as the tolerance side of the bearing unit. That being the case, the machining is actually as good or better then a spindle oil or grease bearing. And, if one wants to upgrade the actual roller bearing, it can easily be changed to an enclosed race bearing with a grease bath. (which is what I did)
I removed all of the automatic hardware, changed the bearing, dismantled and lubricated the motor with Mobil One synthetic grease, (which is also what the enclosed race bearing sits in) and installed a Grace 747 tone arm. The results are amazing. After about three minutes of listening to this table, I sold both my Linn LP12 and my Ariston RD11s and have never looked back.
Since then, I have also acquired a Thorens 124, which I am happy with. It doesn't however have the bottom end and weight that the Dual has. I am now thinking of a Garrard 301, but have reservations with regard to suspension problems and set up that many experience. Your site is making me seriously consider a Lenco.
The quality of Dual, Garrard, Thorens, and of course Lenco will never be matched by anything available today. And nothing slams like quality idler drive." Norman Sizemore
Found this here http://http://www.freewebs.com/strictly_vinyl/
"I enjoyed your site. You're wrong however about the Duals' sleeve on ball bearing not being good enough for serious listening. The sleeve of a Dual, is machined from solid brass to the nth degree,
(if you would like I can copy the white paper explaining exactly how this was designed to work which is complete with full bearing tolerance specifications. No expense was spared on this design which is why is went out of production. It was far to costly to produce)
and this platter sleeve is actually engineered to work as the tolerance side of the bearing unit. That being the case, the machining is actually as good or better then a spindle oil or grease bearing. And, if one wants to upgrade the actual roller bearing, it can easily be changed to an enclosed race bearing with a grease bath. (which is what I did)
I removed all of the automatic hardware, changed the bearing, dismantled and lubricated the motor with Mobil One synthetic grease, (which is also what the enclosed race bearing sits in) and installed a Grace 747 tone arm. The results are amazing. After about three minutes of listening to this table, I sold both my Linn LP12 and my Ariston RD11s and have never looked back.
Since then, I have also acquired a Thorens 124, which I am happy with. It doesn't however have the bottom end and weight that the Dual has. I am now thinking of a Garrard 301, but have reservations with regard to suspension problems and set up that many experience. Your site is making me seriously consider a Lenco.
The quality of Dual, Garrard, Thorens, and of course Lenco will never be matched by anything available today. And nothing slams like quality idler drive." Norman Sizemore
Unfortunately I have dismantled it largely now while I'm making a cosmetically more acceptable plinth and redoing the tonearm to something a little more polished.
I agree with you, Nanook, that I wouldn't normally disassemble the 1229. However, it came to me in a poor state of repair so anything I did was an improvement 🙂 The tonearm though, I should have left as it was. I didn't find my DIY effort to be an improvement in a significant degree. I think that tonearm was actually pretty good with a high compliance cartridge.
I do think that the biggest improvement we can make to any of these older turntable (and also the easiest) is in making a new heavy plinth. Adds much more solidity and definition to the bass in particular, at least that was my experience.
Garrad 6-300 disappoint
Well after my budget Dual 1210 success, I was quite chuffed when I saw a Garrad 6-300 on the side of the road in a HMV deck. Turns out that's where it belongs, what a heap of rubbish against the Dual. I can't believe the same company that makes the 301 / 401 is responsible for this. Platter bearings even when lubed are so rough they sound like the shaft has gravel in it. The platter is paper thin and the arm is plastic with a just about fake counter weight (hidden springs do the real work) now the dual had springs, but the arm was engineered and had bearings!
So disappointed, won't be fixing this one up.
Well after my budget Dual 1210 success, I was quite chuffed when I saw a Garrad 6-300 on the side of the road in a HMV deck. Turns out that's where it belongs, what a heap of rubbish against the Dual. I can't believe the same company that makes the 301 / 401 is responsible for this. Platter bearings even when lubed are so rough they sound like the shaft has gravel in it. The platter is paper thin and the arm is plastic with a just about fake counter weight (hidden springs do the real work) now the dual had springs, but the arm was engineered and had bearings!
So disappointed, won't be fixing this one up.
Bearing info
Hello Ecodan.
I am working on a Dual 1219; removing all the auto mechanisms and mounting it in a baltic ply base.Would you mind sharing your platter bearing upgrade info with a part number to give me starting point for my model?
Hello Ecodan.
I am working on a Dual 1219; removing all the auto mechanisms and mounting it in a baltic ply base.Would you mind sharing your platter bearing upgrade info with a part number to give me starting point for my model?
Awsome!
Haven't upgraded the platter bearing my self, but was interested if any one else had. The quote I posted about bearings was original from a chap named Norman Sizemore, however he is proving hard to track down for more info. Personally I'm more concerned about getting my idler re built at this point. I haven't detected much noise from the platter bearing... It's really pretty good!
Dual lube update
Main bearing: Found motorcycle chain lube is working really well on the duals main platter bearing and shaft. I believe similar to the original renotac adhesive oil it does an excellent job of holding lubtication up the shaft.
Motor lube: I have found light sewing machine oil may lube well, but doesn't dampen noise like W30 oil does. I found W30 about halves the rumble noise along with removing the lower half of the rubber isolator under the motor mount which I replaced with felt.
Main bearing: Found motorcycle chain lube is working really well on the duals main platter bearing and shaft. I believe similar to the original renotac adhesive oil it does an excellent job of holding lubtication up the shaft.
Motor lube: I have found light sewing machine oil may lube well, but doesn't dampen noise like W30 oil does. I found W30 about halves the rumble noise along with removing the lower half of the rubber isolator under the motor mount which I replaced with felt.
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Watch this, yes it's rough, but he's built his own levitating platter and his own cartridge!!! 
http://youtu.be/BJg3jLuPshk
http://youtu.be/BJg3jLuPshk
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