Hi y'all
Just last month, 2 out of 3 of my tried & true Linn amps (model 5105) took a dump after a Power outage. I had my whole system protected (I thought) with a Cinepro Powerpro 10 line conditioner, but they still fried. I've had these amps running some Linn model 5140 towers with active crossover cards installed in each amp to match each of the drivers in the 5140's. Linn loves the matched crossover cards in their systems, and as Im sure you know, the sound of going from passive to active is a big leap in performance. Been running this system for about 15 years with great satisfaction, but I guess all things end eventually.
Took the 2 amps in to an electronic repair shop only to find out the boards are fried and parts are no longer readily available. SOOOO, on to plan B. Im looking at stand alone 3 way active crossovers and have decided to pick up a Rane model AC 23s, or a DBX PA2 3 way active crossover to run my 5140's with different amps. Both are in the $500 give or take range, the Rane is probably the least versatile of the 2, but a good peiece of pro gear. Thoughts? Alternatives?
My next question is where do I start on frequency settings for the Tweets, mids, and woofers? Y'all have some good basic frequency starting points to go with and begin tweaking? Linn spoils those who are rich (crazy) enough to pay their prices for crossover cards that install directly into their amps with ideally matched frequency settings for the specific drivers in their speakers. But they are very secretive about the frequencies & crossover slopes. And it comes at a higher price than Im willing to pay again. A stand alone crossover opens up my amp choices to non Linn amps, which can save me some serious dough on the used market. I have a couple of Adcom amps (and the last functional 5105 of the 3) to use now and tinker until I find suitable permanent replacement amps.
Thanks in advance
Just last month, 2 out of 3 of my tried & true Linn amps (model 5105) took a dump after a Power outage. I had my whole system protected (I thought) with a Cinepro Powerpro 10 line conditioner, but they still fried. I've had these amps running some Linn model 5140 towers with active crossover cards installed in each amp to match each of the drivers in the 5140's. Linn loves the matched crossover cards in their systems, and as Im sure you know, the sound of going from passive to active is a big leap in performance. Been running this system for about 15 years with great satisfaction, but I guess all things end eventually.
Took the 2 amps in to an electronic repair shop only to find out the boards are fried and parts are no longer readily available. SOOOO, on to plan B. Im looking at stand alone 3 way active crossovers and have decided to pick up a Rane model AC 23s, or a DBX PA2 3 way active crossover to run my 5140's with different amps. Both are in the $500 give or take range, the Rane is probably the least versatile of the 2, but a good peiece of pro gear. Thoughts? Alternatives?
My next question is where do I start on frequency settings for the Tweets, mids, and woofers? Y'all have some good basic frequency starting points to go with and begin tweaking? Linn spoils those who are rich (crazy) enough to pay their prices for crossover cards that install directly into their amps with ideally matched frequency settings for the specific drivers in their speakers. But they are very secretive about the frequencies & crossover slopes. And it comes at a higher price than Im willing to pay again. A stand alone crossover opens up my amp choices to non Linn amps, which can save me some serious dough on the used market. I have a couple of Adcom amps (and the last functional 5105 of the 3) to use now and tinker until I find suitable permanent replacement amps.
Thanks in advance
I have used the Behringer DCX2496 for over 12 years. They are affordable, available, very flexible. You will need a measuring mic, mic stand, pink noise source, RTA to properly set up any active system. I can recommend the Behringer ECM8000 measuring mic and HiFi News Test CD. No passive system in my experience can rival the clarity, dynamism of a good active set-up. You might need to do some research to select the x-over topology that best suits your requirements. I'm a big fan of the Bessel crossover option used with time alignment of drivers on the DCX2496.
Linn model 5140 towers look like bipole speakers with a second ported woofer on back for baffle step and room/wall gain functionality.
FIRST: Does one amp and active Xover board still work? Which speaker does it drive? If it drives the rear woofer, you could consider a passive Xover design + Adcom for the front T-M and bi-amping. A generic analog Xover like the Rane AC23 will probably not sound better than a decent passive TM Xover.
SECOND, Reality Check: These are 15 year old speakers. Only rare and expensive replacement amps+Xover boards can restore them to circa 1996 performance. You could put together a plan to use all digital Xovers like the MiniDSP 2x8, or Beringer with a pair of Adcom amps. Your investments and education can be used with future speakers, or if the last amp fails.
THIRD: If you make an investment in digital Xover and new amps, you should watch the SWAP forum for interesting latest/greatest diy speakers to experiment with.
FIRST: Does one amp and active Xover board still work? Which speaker does it drive? If it drives the rear woofer, you could consider a passive Xover design + Adcom for the front T-M and bi-amping. A generic analog Xover like the Rane AC23 will probably not sound better than a decent passive TM Xover.
SECOND, Reality Check: These are 15 year old speakers. Only rare and expensive replacement amps+Xover boards can restore them to circa 1996 performance. You could put together a plan to use all digital Xovers like the MiniDSP 2x8, or Beringer with a pair of Adcom amps. Your investments and education can be used with future speakers, or if the last amp fails.
THIRD: If you make an investment in digital Xover and new amps, you should watch the SWAP forum for interesting latest/greatest diy speakers to experiment with.
Sorry to hear about your broken gear.
I have a Rane RPM26z an older model built until a couple years ago. It is easy to use and flexible, powerful DSP, but the SQ is flat and dull.
If you are accustomed to Linn refinement, you will not be satisfied with Behringer sound quality. It is also not very reliable. But it is inexpensive, and easy setup and adjustment. The analog input is particularly bad SQ 4/10, while the digital is 6/10.
DEQX is worth a look if your budget allows and if you are willing to commit to the substantial learning curve. It is extremely powerful, so there is a thick manual. A couple of my friends have tried it and sold out not willing to do the required work. But DEQX will help guide you in DIY, or do everything for a fee. The potential sound quality is among the best available.
Bryston, Marchand, others make standalone, analog active crossovers you might consider.
I have tried most of these and settled on using a PC based crossover. I use JRiver 20, with a Presonus Firepod 10 ch audio interface. It has become the center of my system with analog inputs for tuner and vinyl, source switching, digital volume control, crossovers, EQ, distance, levels, media player, video player, ripper, plays from CDrom, streams internet radio, etc. The new version of the Firepod is USB instead of firewire and costs about $400. The JRiver DSP is all 64 bit, so the sound quality is excellent. The Presonus audio interface is 8/10. You could also use a high end USB multichannel DAC like Exasound e28 for even better. JRiver can also run convolution based crossover filters if you want the very best.
I have a Rane RPM26z an older model built until a couple years ago. It is easy to use and flexible, powerful DSP, but the SQ is flat and dull.
If you are accustomed to Linn refinement, you will not be satisfied with Behringer sound quality. It is also not very reliable. But it is inexpensive, and easy setup and adjustment. The analog input is particularly bad SQ 4/10, while the digital is 6/10.
DEQX is worth a look if your budget allows and if you are willing to commit to the substantial learning curve. It is extremely powerful, so there is a thick manual. A couple of my friends have tried it and sold out not willing to do the required work. But DEQX will help guide you in DIY, or do everything for a fee. The potential sound quality is among the best available.
Bryston, Marchand, others make standalone, analog active crossovers you might consider.
I have tried most of these and settled on using a PC based crossover. I use JRiver 20, with a Presonus Firepod 10 ch audio interface. It has become the center of my system with analog inputs for tuner and vinyl, source switching, digital volume control, crossovers, EQ, distance, levels, media player, video player, ripper, plays from CDrom, streams internet radio, etc. The new version of the Firepod is USB instead of firewire and costs about $400. The JRiver DSP is all 64 bit, so the sound quality is excellent. The Presonus audio interface is 8/10. You could also use a high end USB multichannel DAC like Exasound e28 for even better. JRiver can also run convolution based crossover filters if you want the very best.
THanks for the replies.
To answer some questions, Bon I thought about the Behringer DCX2496, but heard about reliability issues and background noise with other Behringer products. In fairness, I hadnt heard that with the DCX.
Linesource, I have one amp still working fine for now. It currently has the treble card in it now. The other cards may not have been damaged, but they couldnt be tested since the amps were dead. I will try them in the remaining amp to determine if they are OK. I may end up putting them on Audiogon if they are all functional while I can still get something out of them. As for building a mini DSP or DIY kit, frankly I dont have the time or patience to take on a project like that. Definitely not going back with the Linn active system, just too pricey, but Im totally sold on active crossovers after experiencing them.
The 5140's are 3 way with a rear facing front ported woofer. I'm looking at 3 way crossovers in case the final amp takes a dump. And down the road I may make a speaker change so my options will be much more open than they are now, but I really like these speakers. The bass is a little weak if placed out from the back wall and works best about 1 ft from the back wall, which makes for good wife acceptance factor. The midrange and upper mid is to die for while the highs are clear without being sibilant. Im certainly not contemplating a speaker change any time soon.
Richidoo, I looked at the DEQX website after reading your post. While it looks very interesting, the prices are WAY up there. And while I know from my past HiFi days that Bryston products are all top notch, they are pricey too. I also looked at the Presonus site and the FP10 nis now discontinued and I couldnt figure out which product replaces it. Im suspecting this is outside my budget and skill set as well.
Bottom line, Im looking for a replacement stand alone 3 way active crossover that will (somewhat) adequately mimic the SQ of my now DOA Linn system. The DBX still looks like the best choice so far in the $500 range, but still want to explore other options b4 pulling the trigger. I'll be shopping the used amp market later when I've got my speaker L&R speaker system up & running, but I've heard repeatedly that good quality amps are much closer in SQ to high $$ amps than most people want to think.
Any other options to consider? Thanks again.
To answer some questions, Bon I thought about the Behringer DCX2496, but heard about reliability issues and background noise with other Behringer products. In fairness, I hadnt heard that with the DCX.
Linesource, I have one amp still working fine for now. It currently has the treble card in it now. The other cards may not have been damaged, but they couldnt be tested since the amps were dead. I will try them in the remaining amp to determine if they are OK. I may end up putting them on Audiogon if they are all functional while I can still get something out of them. As for building a mini DSP or DIY kit, frankly I dont have the time or patience to take on a project like that. Definitely not going back with the Linn active system, just too pricey, but Im totally sold on active crossovers after experiencing them.
The 5140's are 3 way with a rear facing front ported woofer. I'm looking at 3 way crossovers in case the final amp takes a dump. And down the road I may make a speaker change so my options will be much more open than they are now, but I really like these speakers. The bass is a little weak if placed out from the back wall and works best about 1 ft from the back wall, which makes for good wife acceptance factor. The midrange and upper mid is to die for while the highs are clear without being sibilant. Im certainly not contemplating a speaker change any time soon.
Richidoo, I looked at the DEQX website after reading your post. While it looks very interesting, the prices are WAY up there. And while I know from my past HiFi days that Bryston products are all top notch, they are pricey too. I also looked at the Presonus site and the FP10 nis now discontinued and I couldnt figure out which product replaces it. Im suspecting this is outside my budget and skill set as well.
Bottom line, Im looking for a replacement stand alone 3 way active crossover that will (somewhat) adequately mimic the SQ of my now DOA Linn system. The DBX still looks like the best choice so far in the $500 range, but still want to explore other options b4 pulling the trigger. I'll be shopping the used amp market later when I've got my speaker L&R speaker system up & running, but I've heard repeatedly that good quality amps are much closer in SQ to high $$ amps than most people want to think.
Any other options to consider? Thanks again.
Without the original transfer functions this is going to take a lot of work to do right no matter what direction you choose. In effect you're redesigning the speakers, and as mentioned before you'll need a mic. Along with the mic you'll need to know how to get good data, and you'll need to know how to design the crossovers if you want to approach the sq you got before your amps took a dump. If you can't do any of that then I'm afraid you'll be disappointed with the results.
The only way I see this working "easily" for you is to find the original amps/xo cards for your speaker.
The only way I see this working "easily" for you is to find the original amps/xo cards for your speaker.
I find it really hard to imagine not buying a Behringer DCX2496... inconceivable to me. What you set it for is what you get exactly.
You need no other gear to make it work as well as any other black box. BUT: with a cheap mic and REW software, you can spend days happily fine-tuning to your room and to your ears. First you see what the mic thinks. Then you further tune to what your ear prefers.
Behringer makes a conventional analog crossover with more analog adjustments than you could imagine (CX3500??). However, you can't trust the silk-screened dials. So you can (must) fine-tune with REW and some RCA cables and get it electrically flat or go further and trim with a mic.
Ben
You need no other gear to make it work as well as any other black box. BUT: with a cheap mic and REW software, you can spend days happily fine-tuning to your room and to your ears. First you see what the mic thinks. Then you further tune to what your ear prefers.
Behringer makes a conventional analog crossover with more analog adjustments than you could imagine (CX3500??). However, you can't trust the silk-screened dials. So you can (must) fine-tune with REW and some RCA cables and get it electrically flat or go further and trim with a mic.
Ben
Ben has nailed it. This almost precisely what I could have written. I have purchased six Behringer DCX2496, for 4 separate active 3-way speaker systems. I had noise issues with 2 of them but they were fixed/replaced under warranty. So I concede reliability is not perfect, but for the price nothing comes close. As the model name suggests, it is 96 kHz sample rate. The last time I checked, the Driverack was 48 kHz. I can easily hear the improvement, whereas not so much difference between 96 KHz and 192 kHz.
There is a DCX Yahoo user group with lots of experience on tweaking on offer. I can't be bothered myself. I am perfectly satisfied with the stock units performance.
I have also used the CX3400, CX2310 analogue crossovers with no issues. I would be wary of using active crossovers with very high efficiency horn drivers. You really need very quiet electronics with 100 dB efficiency drivers.
Others obviously have a different opinion of Behringer gear. It is cheap so it must be crap, right? My experience with using the DCX with the best drivers I could afford (Scanspeak mainly), is very positive. I have built a number of active 3-ways based on the DCX for friends who are very happy with the performance, even to the extent of replacing their 5 figure commercial passive speakers. The money and space for a rack of power amps is not to be forgotten though, as is the negative WAF for the required cables etc.
Bon
A 2x4 miniDSP with 4 way plug in works great as a 1x4 active DSP XO and EQ. Two 1x4's cost less than a 1x8. They are so versatile I can't imagine building or designing speakers without them.
This should be required reading for anyone with or contemplating an active. I had no idea that different companies would use different (whatever it is that they use).
My 2 cents is you don't want to cheap out with the active as it becomes the heart of the system.
I used to think they were all the same (sound wise) and just had different feature sets..... until a small group of us did an informal side by side.
My 2 cents is you don't want to cheap out with the active as it becomes the heart of the system.
I used to think they were all the same (sound wise) and just had different feature sets..... until a small group of us did an informal side by side.
Thanks for good thoughts from Bon.
BTW, one issue with the Behringer DC2496 is that it is meant to work within a fairly loud signal level environment. Soooooo, typically you need a level control on your power amp to crank down the input signal so that the Behringer can coast along at highish signal voltage without over-driving the amp. Esp if you are burdened with high-efficiency drivers that reveal all the noise in your amp already.
Actually, not nearly the Signal to Noise hazard people worry about, but still needs a bit of attention (also helps keep signal level high enough so that the Behringer VU bulbs are flashing)*.
Ben
*having a VU meter for EACH driver is quite a hoot. Tweeters over 4kHz never flash on MP3s, iPods, many FM stations, or Pandora stuff. Subs below 45 HZ hardly flash for anything.
BTW, one issue with the Behringer DC2496 is that it is meant to work within a fairly loud signal level environment. Soooooo, typically you need a level control on your power amp to crank down the input signal so that the Behringer can coast along at highish signal voltage without over-driving the amp. Esp if you are burdened with high-efficiency drivers that reveal all the noise in your amp already.
Actually, not nearly the Signal to Noise hazard people worry about, but still needs a bit of attention (also helps keep signal level high enough so that the Behringer VU bulbs are flashing)*.
Ben
*having a VU meter for EACH driver is quite a hoot. Tweeters over 4kHz never flash on MP3s, iPods, many FM stations, or Pandora stuff. Subs below 45 HZ hardly flash for anything.
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IF all/any of the three active Xover cards are functional, you could download free PC software to perform a sine*frequency sweep of each Xover card in the one good amp while capturing the SPL output shape. This should simplify any repair option you select. Personally, I would use this new data to:
1) Download the miniDSP 2x8 users manual with programming guide and study how to mimic the Linn crossover functions. The power and flexibility of the miniDSP 2x8 can be used to both tune this Linn 5140 to your current room, and move this DSP equipment to any future speaker. You have Adcom amps for a first test. Folks in the miniDSP forum can help you 🙂
--AND/OR--
2) Use the good Linn amp with the rear woofer active crossover card. Download a free passive Xover design program and study how to duplicate the T-M Linn SPL/freq curve. Bi-Amp with your Adcoms. XSim (diyAudio thread) and Passive Crossover Designer(2007) are popular tools. For best results, you will need a mic to make measurements of the current speakers. For experiments, you could assume your speaker curves sum with the Linn Xover curves into a flat response , and Kluge-up speakers curves to experiment with on the simulator. Folks in the XSim thread can help you 🙂
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/259865-xsim-free-crossover-designer.html
3) Your Linn 5140s are 15 years old. Worth the time to visit a couple threads on controlled directivity speaker designs that use modern waveguides/horns to study how improved tech plus improved room reflections control can improve HT. Investments in DSP tech could move over.
LineSource is on the right track. Forget messing around with a mic, Linn did a great job with the crossovers and all you need to do is copy them.
They are probably working perfectly still. You can probably rehouse them in a new box with its own +/-15V power supply once you figure out the connections. Then just add new amps.
They are probably working perfectly still. You can probably rehouse them in a new box with its own +/-15V power supply once you figure out the connections. Then just add new amps.
If you decide to take pictures of your damaged Xover PCBs and amplifier PCB, post them to add some pieces to the puzzle. Pictures of amp damage from AC-BLAST would be informative to see.
If all of the Xovers PCBs can be tested functional on your one good amp, you might decide to explore a separate cabinet and power supply for the Linn PCBs to drive your Adcom amps. richie00boy comments on "rehouse them in a new box" because "Linn did a great job with the crossovers" is another vote for this path ..... You will probably need something like a +/- 24V capacitor filtered DC supply so the on-PCB voltage regulators will work correctly. A resistor divider to match Xover opamp to Adcom signal levels might also be needed to get best sound from your system. (no compression)
I assumed that some of the Xover PCBs were destroyed, but that you could piece enough data to move the SPL/freq transfer functions to a digital Xover. With some education and experiments, this digital Xover should be capable of superior equalization and in-room sound.
A Google search shows the existence of a passive T-M Xover that would work with your speaker. This would allow you to bi-amp, since you stated that your bass amp still works.
If all of the Xovers PCBs can be tested functional on your one good amp, you might decide to explore a separate cabinet and power supply for the Linn PCBs to drive your Adcom amps. richie00boy comments on "rehouse them in a new box" because "Linn did a great job with the crossovers" is another vote for this path ..... You will probably need something like a +/- 24V capacitor filtered DC supply so the on-PCB voltage regulators will work correctly. A resistor divider to match Xover opamp to Adcom signal levels might also be needed to get best sound from your system. (no compression)
I assumed that some of the Xover PCBs were destroyed, but that you could piece enough data to move the SPL/freq transfer functions to a digital Xover. With some education and experiments, this digital Xover should be capable of superior equalization and in-room sound.
A Google search shows the existence of a passive T-M Xover that would work with your speaker. This would allow you to bi-amp, since you stated that your bass amp still works.
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