Well I'm happy to be considered as you say, no problem with me. I'm not that keen to share all the knowledge I gained spending years of expirences, research and much $$$ especially while no one seem to even want to hear my basic ideas for anyhing better than discussed. I really do not care and do not take it seriously, just having fun trying to safe someone that is on the road I have been years ago some time and effort.
Same case for internal speaker wiring I spoke at another forum with someone. As I said on those pages use Cardas internal purpose litz wire of proper guage. Simple becouse it is very hard to find anything better ready available and it is priced very resonable. It is very pure copper and the individual strands are eurethane enemaled - so isolated, also of diffrent diameter. I have used and adviced this internal speaker wire cable to hundreds of DIY-ers with exeptional results simply becouse I have tried hundreds of other ways or ready cables and this was amongs the best, but still very few wanted to hear about it and to try it, why becouse it is Cardas the big brand?
As to the ribbon cables I advice, everyting is some trade off. The round cables have some strenghts and the flat ribbon cables also have some, some are exeptional and ready heard while others need expirenced listeners to hear. The thing with ribbon cables is that the thinner the ribbon the more obvious are the strenghts they are good at, but to keep them good as general speaker cables you need a cross section that lowers drastically when you use thinner foil. This is why very expirenced ribbon cable builders you may come across in the internt use very thin but very wide ribbons to gain cross section area and still keep the low thickness that give some exeptional results (there sre sure other factors like copper/silver purity or dilectric strenght but that's another story). And at the other end of the play there are round conductors that have many other strenghts at totally diffrent areas than ribbons. Single core conductors give exeptional results at the area where ribbons have usually poor performance (though when choosing between single round conductors or single ribbon cables most choose the ribbon trade off). There is also the screening thing that properly done gives a benefits... maybe just put it all together to give some mix of the best... 🙂
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You don't care yet write a long response. If you really didn't care you would just say 'meh' and be done with it.
Ok I just say "meh" but other than that I'm just trying to give some hints of what I learned over the years and maybe jus some other point of view. If one out of hundred will try it I'm happy with it. My basic message for this thread was : don't waste your time with Cat5 cables as they are not even worth 5 minutes of effort connecting them, just don't waste your time.
Good Night
I'm reading this an apology (or offering it as an epiphany for you). You enjoy and advocate high inductance geometry while wrongly under the impression this is low inductance. Then you recommend to another forum to use Cardas, which is an extreme low-inductance cable. All the while, CAT5 is crappity, crap, crap. Face it brother, you are a closeted low-inductance cable person! Welcome to the CAT5 club!
No, you again got it wrong, you base your expirences on looking at the cables how they are built (at least how they look to be similarly built) while I come to my expirence with using those cables. When I use internal wiring Cardas wire for internal speaker drivers connection I use single wire runs for + and for - and I do not twist them. I use 23awg for tweeters some 17-18 awg for mid and lets say 15, or lower for bass just as an example. These are multi core conductors built with many individual strands that I consider good (especially when the strands are of diffrent diameter as in Cardas case) but are individually isolated (no diode effect), additionally you have a high quality copper used. Now you compare it to Cat 5 where the copper quality is mostly crappy in audio terms, the strands are of same thickness, usually 0,5mm if I remember correct, there is some poliethylene or worse thick dielectric applied to each conductor, and there are twisted pairs and there are at least 20 ways of combinations to connect them inside the speakers. Sorry but there is no comparision to Cardas wires I mention to even speak of.
Cheers
Cardas internal chassis wire is the single wire. You can say it is low inductance if you use part of the internal strands for + and part for - but the purpose of it is to use one wire for + and one for - and the final inductance will only depends on how close you space the + and - wires. Litz wire construction is superior, used also by Audio Note in all their cables, also some others though.
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I run short Cat 5 for speaker wires. Acoustat, ML ESLs and Maggies I even ran them on my 1 ohm Scintillas and they never got hot. I worry about too high capacitance of my ESL and Cat5 on my ICEPower (where too much capacitance is NOT good) I think a crossover component or driver is more likely to fail and melt way before the Cat5 cable will.
I don't think I run 8 amp continuous to my speakers. Would I use Cat5 for a Class A amp Power supply rail? Nah, I use nice thick 14 gauge Copper wire for that. as I know there will be a bit of continuous current there.
Now I have read that some amps like Naim design their cables to have certain Capacitance / Inductance / Resistance to act as a zobel fllter, and the amps run very unstable with normal speaker cables. Pretty smart, eh? Marketing Genius?
I don't think I run 8 amp continuous to my speakers. Would I use Cat5 for a Class A amp Power supply rail? Nah, I use nice thick 14 gauge Copper wire for that. as I know there will be a bit of continuous current there.
Now I have read that some amps like Naim design their cables to have certain Capacitance / Inductance / Resistance to act as a zobel fllter, and the amps run very unstable with normal speaker cables. Pretty smart, eh? Marketing Genius?
I have learnt a new word: "ampacity". Presumably it is etymologically linked to 'amperage'? As I never use the latter I don't expect to use the former, but at least I will now recognise it when others use it.
This thread has dived down the Alice hole, as these threads usually do. We have confusion between high inductance and low inductance, and accusations of preferring (shock! horror!) low resistance cables (I plead guilty) and simultaneously low inductance and capacitance (which requires speeding up light, so not possible in the universe I live it). We also seem to have momentarily brushed with the idea of (lack of) heating being a quality criterion for speaker cables.
This thread has dived down the Alice hole, as these threads usually do. We have confusion between high inductance and low inductance, and accusations of preferring (shock! horror!) low resistance cables (I plead guilty) and simultaneously low inductance and capacitance (which requires speeding up light, so not possible in the universe I live it). We also seem to have momentarily brushed with the idea of (lack of) heating being a quality criterion for speaker cables.
When the minions of the cable-industrial complex weigh in on opinions for next-to-free speaker cables, the discussion can dive down anybody's hole.
Exactly how much of a current load is anticipated in this particular situation? - especially considering the Asparas are a 3-way horn loaded system with from what I can find, a rated sensitivity of 100dB, and will be driven by a moderately powered tube amp?
I've been using CAT5 as raw material for DIY speaker cables, internal wiring and interconnects for at least 10yrs, as well as cheap multistrand "zip" wire, without blowing anything up, melting insulation, or starting a fire - as SY noted above, in over 50yrs playing with audio gear, I've yet to feel overheated speaker cables - undersized AC power cords on monster amps might be a different story. The power plug on my Sears vacuum cleaner gets warmer after 20min of operation than I've felt on any of my audio gear.
I've been using CAT5 as raw material for DIY speaker cables, internal wiring and interconnects for at least 10yrs, as well as cheap multistrand "zip" wire, without blowing anything up, melting insulation, or starting a fire - as SY noted above, in over 50yrs playing with audio gear, I've yet to feel overheated speaker cables - undersized AC power cords on monster amps might be a different story. The power plug on my Sears vacuum cleaner gets warmer after 20min of operation than I've felt on any of my audio gear.
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I first learned "ampacity" when I started learning the national electric code. I don't know who first coined the term though.
NEC deals with not only the gauge of the conductor, but the insulation thickness, insulation temperature rating, how many wires are within a multiconductor cable, whether it's in a conduit or tray, and how well it's cooled by ambient air.
Lots of guidelines are established in the NEC book to allow guys like me to put big systems together without causing fires. Basically, "do it this way" and you won't burn the insulation..
jn
A low powered tube amp would likely be fine on lighter gauge wire. Hook it to something with 75 volt rails will be another story. That what I'm accustomed to dealing with and why I brought up the issue of current.
CEC guidelines are very similar. I've followed them for years when specifying any kind of wire. It's much safer that way.
If you're talking 70.7V distribution lines for larger numbers of drivers in commercial / industrial venues, then wire gauge would certainly be a major factor in system design, particularly if total power and distances involved are significant. But does 15-30watts into, let's assume a nominal 8 Ohm load , over 2.5meters qualify for such concern? Doesn't that calculate to something like 2amps?
IIRC, single conductor current rating of #24 in CAT5 is approx 1/2 Amp with max voltage rating of 125V DC, so theoretically paralleling all 8 conductors in a single cable would provide about 4 1/2A capacity = ~160W@8Ohms - pretty freaking loud on a 100dB speaker?
8 conductors together would normally be derated to 70% so closer to 3 amps. The other issue is an 8 ohm speaker is rarely 8 ohms. If a driver is moving outwards and the amp tells it to move inwards at the same time (every half cycle) the current flow is much higher. If you are using it on a 15-30 watt amp it's likely fine. As I said I'm accustomed to much higher power than that.+-70 volt rails on the latest project (not transmission line). There's plenty of current available at 8 ohms. It leaves me with visions of molten Cat5.
I also keep remembering our company Christmas float from a few years ago. An idiot kid wired up 2 speakers with Cat5 (both speakers through 1 pair each in one cable) and had a Bryston B3 blasting into them for a couple hours. We were lucky the float didn't burn. The wire disintegrated before the parade was over.
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In North America, "ampacity" is a perfectly legit word used by electricians for the rated current of a cable. The rest of the world has no clue what they are on about.
To anyone "experienced" in DIY speaker cable building, try blind testing the cables, then you will really get some experience. 😉
To anyone "experienced" in DIY speaker cable building, try blind testing the cables, then you will really get some experience. 😉
Shouldn't it be just basic load calculations, including load resistance, voltage, current, gauge and length of the conductor? (Beyond all of the other properties like inductance and capacitance, which many have their own theory)
Low frequency would require the most current, according to the amount of wattage expected at the far end. If the conductor isn't sufficient to carry the load, wattage will be dissipated within the conductor as heat. Basic stuff..
The higher the frequency, the more the skin effect comes into play. 5 to 20 kHz. is not D.C. A small diameter conductor has less surface area, hence, less conductor to carry the load. Basic stuff..
So, looking at it from that angle, wouldn't a multi conductor wire with the ability to carry the maximum current required to the load be the best option? Cat anything doesn't seem like a good option to me personally. Single, small gauge conductors may be fine for very short runs (Less than a foot) but for 20-30 Ft.. Idunno..
Even if the pairs are paralleled, all one has is a group of small insulated conductors with less current carrying capabilities than a run of stranded 12 Ga. wire.. JMO..
Low frequency would require the most current, according to the amount of wattage expected at the far end. If the conductor isn't sufficient to carry the load, wattage will be dissipated within the conductor as heat. Basic stuff..
The higher the frequency, the more the skin effect comes into play. 5 to 20 kHz. is not D.C. A small diameter conductor has less surface area, hence, less conductor to carry the load. Basic stuff..
So, looking at it from that angle, wouldn't a multi conductor wire with the ability to carry the maximum current required to the load be the best option? Cat anything doesn't seem like a good option to me personally. Single, small gauge conductors may be fine for very short runs (Less than a foot) but for 20-30 Ft.. Idunno..
Even if the pairs are paralleled, all one has is a group of small insulated conductors with less current carrying capabilities than a run of stranded 12 Ga. wire.. JMO..
Hi folks - first post here on DIY Audio. I've been lurking and meaning to do the intro thing but my recent experience compels me to post now and forego the introductory formalities.
For what it's worth I have an grad degree in an fairly obscure field of engineering far removed from EE, never needed to take circuits, and physics was a loooong time ago. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, eh?
I built myself a set of these CAT5 cables pretty much as per V5 in the above mentioned 'shootout', ie., six cables in three pairs braided. I did so for three reasons: a) i was curious b) i had a roll of CAT5 laying around and c) it kept my hands busy during a couple of chickflicks in front of the TV with my wife.
The results look pretty much like the photo in the shootout, except my pairs are not twisted and the braid is tighter. They're brown. The cable said CAT5 and had all sorts of small solid core rainbow conductors, which I separated into pretty colors, and pretty colors with white. I started with about 2 M of bare cable, and the result is 1.6 M +/-, with composite ends looking about 12 gauge or so. Did I mention they're brown?
Having given less than full attention to the process in dim light without my reading glasses, I figured it was prudent to put a meter on each composite conductor to make sure I hadn't mixed up one or more of the wires and created a dead short. Amps frown on this I'm told. I expected to see either 'full conductivity' along a conductor (resistance too low for my meter to measure) or 'open circuit' conditions as I checked he conductors against each other. I did not.
While measuring the resistance from one end of the colored to the other end of the colored strands, I got 'full conductivity', as expected. When I connected the ohm meter to one end of the colored and one end of the colored with white, I initially observed around 20 Mohms, and watched the value steadily drop to 5-6 Mohms and fluctuate there.
It's as if I've built a capacitor and the CAT5 cables are storing the charge.
Help! I'm no EE. Is this normal? Dangerous to my eq.? Paranormal even?
All replies will be appreciated, in one manner or another. 😉
For what it's worth I have an grad degree in an fairly obscure field of engineering far removed from EE, never needed to take circuits, and physics was a loooong time ago. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, eh?
I built myself a set of these CAT5 cables pretty much as per V5 in the above mentioned 'shootout', ie., six cables in three pairs braided. I did so for three reasons: a) i was curious b) i had a roll of CAT5 laying around and c) it kept my hands busy during a couple of chickflicks in front of the TV with my wife.
The results look pretty much like the photo in the shootout, except my pairs are not twisted and the braid is tighter. They're brown. The cable said CAT5 and had all sorts of small solid core rainbow conductors, which I separated into pretty colors, and pretty colors with white. I started with about 2 M of bare cable, and the result is 1.6 M +/-, with composite ends looking about 12 gauge or so. Did I mention they're brown?
Having given less than full attention to the process in dim light without my reading glasses, I figured it was prudent to put a meter on each composite conductor to make sure I hadn't mixed up one or more of the wires and created a dead short. Amps frown on this I'm told. I expected to see either 'full conductivity' along a conductor (resistance too low for my meter to measure) or 'open circuit' conditions as I checked he conductors against each other. I did not.
While measuring the resistance from one end of the colored to the other end of the colored strands, I got 'full conductivity', as expected. When I connected the ohm meter to one end of the colored and one end of the colored with white, I initially observed around 20 Mohms, and watched the value steadily drop to 5-6 Mohms and fluctuate there.
It's as if I've built a capacitor and the CAT5 cables are storing the charge.
Help! I'm no EE. Is this normal? Dangerous to my eq.? Paranormal even?
All replies will be appreciated, in one manner or another. 😉
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