Hi, I would like to build a subwoofer (preferably a couple) to be matched with a pair of Klipschorn. Must be efficient, get very low, below 20HZ and a woofer with cloth suspension no foam. I like the idea of the tapped horn but I do not know which woofer match, I do not have a project, and then if you have something suitable, thanks for your advice.
Kind regards
Giuseppe
Kind regards
Giuseppe
very Large
Greetings, If you require deep response AND high efficiency, this sub-woofer unit will have to be VERY large. Do you have the space for an infinite baffle set up ?
Greetings, If you require deep response AND high efficiency, this sub-woofer unit will have to be VERY large. Do you have the space for an infinite baffle set up ?
Thanks for your reply Scott, I have seen some projects of tapped horn and I saw the Danley DTS-20 (I can not buy, shipping in Italy would cost me more than the sub), speakers are narrow but long is not a problem, what do you propose to me?
Giuseppe
Giuseppe
Hi audiophile.1963,
It would be good to know a lot more about your room (simple sketch), speaker placement, general musical preferences....but, anyway here are my 2cents. For home use I like the T-TQWT designs that bjorno has popularized here on diyaudio, so you may take a look at them, they are not as efficient as THs though. As far as TH's are concerned:
Hornresp is very helpful to analyze most subwoofer enclosures, and highly recommended for diy, it is particularly nice for tapped horns, and for the use of stuffing (filling) in THs or orther quarter wave devices:
Hornresp
Here are some threads for diy tapped horns that may be of interest, and all can be build using the Eminence LAB12 driver, the TC Sounds LMS-R 12, or the JBL GTO1214:
1. The Danley DTS-10, a large dual 12" TH:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1189404-danley-dts-10-super-spud-diy-kit.htm
The DTS-10 is also well documented @ data-bass.com:
Data-Bass
2. Petter Persson's Kraken series, originally a large dual 12" TH, then Petter added a dual 10", and a nice single 12" version:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/160879-build-your-own-2x12-th-kraken-212-th.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/160879-build-your-own-2x12-th-kraken-212-th-10.html
3. Don Snyder's LAB12 TH built by layertone, I added a short single fold in Post #181 (if I had to build one of these, this would be the one), and full size single fold version in Post 251. These single fold versions are in size similar to the DTS-20 you mentioned, but much easier to build (assuming, that the internal form of the DTS-20 is similar to the one shown in the patent):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn-19.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn-26.html
Regards,
It would be good to know a lot more about your room (simple sketch), speaker placement, general musical preferences....but, anyway here are my 2cents. For home use I like the T-TQWT designs that bjorno has popularized here on diyaudio, so you may take a look at them, they are not as efficient as THs though. As far as TH's are concerned:
Hornresp is very helpful to analyze most subwoofer enclosures, and highly recommended for diy, it is particularly nice for tapped horns, and for the use of stuffing (filling) in THs or orther quarter wave devices:
Hornresp
Here are some threads for diy tapped horns that may be of interest, and all can be build using the Eminence LAB12 driver, the TC Sounds LMS-R 12, or the JBL GTO1214:
1. The Danley DTS-10, a large dual 12" TH:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1189404-danley-dts-10-super-spud-diy-kit.htm
The DTS-10 is also well documented @ data-bass.com:
Data-Bass
2. Petter Persson's Kraken series, originally a large dual 12" TH, then Petter added a dual 10", and a nice single 12" version:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/160879-build-your-own-2x12-th-kraken-212-th.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/160879-build-your-own-2x12-th-kraken-212-th-10.html
3. Don Snyder's LAB12 TH built by layertone, I added a short single fold in Post #181 (if I had to build one of these, this would be the one), and full size single fold version in Post 251. These single fold versions are in size similar to the DTS-20 you mentioned, but much easier to build (assuming, that the internal form of the DTS-20 is similar to the one shown in the patent):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn-19.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn-26.html
Regards,
I do not understand because there is not a woofer with cloth suspension on these subwoofer, foam is not good !
the lab 12 foam is much better than what you are thinking about.
being in italy though... I would be keen to build an othorn tapped horn with the B&C 21sw152 if you can source it affordably.
being in italy though... I would be keen to build an othorn tapped horn with the B&C 21sw152 if you can source it affordably.
Depending on the room modes, there might be very little a sub would add. What do you want to play below 30 Hz? Do you really think other speakers are doing much down there?
I use a giant OB with a fine 15 inch, 21 Hz Stephens woofer that's 50 yrs old or so. The resonance at 21 Hz nicely complements my single Klipsch bass.
Working with low bass in a home room takes you into entirely new worlds of analysis dealing where room modes and speaker placement become the important important factors.
Here's a freq curve taken last week with the Klipsch (not the Stephens) playing the band below 110 Hz. The curve is as bad as most curves taken this way but nearly all the sound is within +- 5 dB from 28 to 12k Hz, at least as far as this curve at head position shows. The horizontal bars are 10 dB apart.
Ben
I use a giant OB with a fine 15 inch, 21 Hz Stephens woofer that's 50 yrs old or so. The resonance at 21 Hz nicely complements my single Klipsch bass.
Working with low bass in a home room takes you into entirely new worlds of analysis dealing where room modes and speaker placement become the important important factors.
Here's a freq curve taken last week with the Klipsch (not the Stephens) playing the band below 110 Hz. The curve is as bad as most curves taken this way but nearly all the sound is within +- 5 dB from 28 to 12k Hz, at least as far as this curve at head position shows. The horizontal bars are 10 dB apart.
Ben
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Hi audiophile.1963,
Post #5: "...there is not a woofer with cloth suspension on these subwoofer..."
Please, note that the first link is to Hornresp, and that the subsequent links provide you with possible solutions to your plan of adding a TH to your existing system. I hoped they would give you an idea as to the general range of sizes.
You can substitute any driver that is available to you, and meets your specifications in Hornresp, and decide if any of these enclosures go in the direction you are looking for.
Regards,
Post #5: "...there is not a woofer with cloth suspension on these subwoofer..."
Please, note that the first link is to Hornresp, and that the subsequent links provide you with possible solutions to your plan of adding a TH to your existing system. I hoped they would give you an idea as to the general range of sizes.
You can substitute any driver that is available to you, and meets your specifications in Hornresp, and decide if any of these enclosures go in the direction you are looking for.
Regards,
Thank you very much for these informations but I'm not able to open:
Build your own 2x12" TH (The Kraken 212 TH)
Build your own 2x12" TH (The Kraken 212 TH)
About Hornresp, I have only Mac G5 computer not PC :-( and I do not know this app. Is there something like/similar at Hornresp for Mac?
Giuseppe
Giuseppe,
You can get something like Bootcamp and do a Windoze emulation on the Mac to get Hornresp to run, but it's cheaper to just find an old PC computer. I use my girlfriend's old Dell for Hornresp, she and her kids have all updated to other PCs, but I still use my Mac G5 for everything else.
This last G5 computer update made me loose respect for Mac, I had to convert 20 years of my Mac documents to RTF before I could open them on it. The "genius bar" idiots did not even know that was a fix, it was a week after I got the computer when a friend explained how to do that, but the process took days to accomplish.
"Bite the big Apple, don't mind the maggots."
Lyrics from "Shattered" by the Rolling Stones.
Art
Hi audiophile.1963,
Post #9: "...not able to open..."
I just tried them again, and they both open fine. They are regular diyaudio Forum links. I'm using Win XP.
As to using Hornresp on a Mac, try posting a question in the Hornresp thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/119854-hornresp-499.html
AkAbak would be another application for tapped horns.
If you have identified a driver that looks promising, I can run it in a simulation to see how it looks in a TH.
What is the F3 you are looking for, any size limits (e.g.: would the Gjallerhorn be too big http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/189784-gjallerhorn.html )? The trade-offs for pushing below 20Hz are lower efficiency, and larger size, usually both.
Regards,
Post #9: "...not able to open..."
I just tried them again, and they both open fine. They are regular diyaudio Forum links. I'm using Win XP.
As to using Hornresp on a Mac, try posting a question in the Hornresp thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/119854-hornresp-499.html
AkAbak would be another application for tapped horns.
If you have identified a driver that looks promising, I can run it in a simulation to see how it looks in a TH.
What is the F3 you are looking for, any size limits (e.g.: would the Gjallerhorn be too big http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/189784-gjallerhorn.html )? The trade-offs for pushing below 20Hz are lower efficiency, and larger size, usually both.
Regards,
Thanks for your reply Oliver. To be honest I do not know a speaker suitable for what I want to do, I know that I want to create a sub that falls very deep, rather than the 20 hz and I would like to put two in the corners of the room. The sub has to be very efficient since it has to make up for the low of Klipsch Klipschorn and La Scala. I would prefer two subs with a single speaker. What do you advise me? What a good woofer, rugged, with deep bass and is also not too expensive?
Kind regards
Giuseppe
Hi audiophile.1963,
You are asking for high sensitivity high SPL response below 20Hz (without any specifics) from two corner horns to augment the response of a pair of Klipschorns and (one ?) La Scala in an as yet unspecified environment?
Also, in Post #1 you say you "...like the idea of the tapped horn...", and "...a woofer with cloth suspension no foam...".
Well, OK. Volvotreter in Germany has been down that road, and has provided a very nice website here:
Tapped Horns
His "Eminence Horn" looks like it would fit your purpose. But, you'll see at the bottom of that page that he ended up w/ 2 home build versions of the TH-SPUD and new mid-bass horns ......
Still, I think the Eminence Horn build plan (from volvotreters Downloads section: Download Section ), adjusted to fit the height of your environment, would be a very good start. Build it from 19mm MDF, that will keep the cost down. Volvotreter lists a number of suitable drivers, you might be able to take that information, and come up with something to experiment. The Eminence Definimax 4015LF looks very good in this enclosure.
Build one, see what it does for you.
Regards,
You are asking for high sensitivity high SPL response below 20Hz (without any specifics) from two corner horns to augment the response of a pair of Klipschorns and (one ?) La Scala in an as yet unspecified environment?
Also, in Post #1 you say you "...like the idea of the tapped horn...", and "...a woofer with cloth suspension no foam...".
Well, OK. Volvotreter in Germany has been down that road, and has provided a very nice website here:
Tapped Horns
His "Eminence Horn" looks like it would fit your purpose. But, you'll see at the bottom of that page that he ended up w/ 2 home build versions of the TH-SPUD and new mid-bass horns ......
Still, I think the Eminence Horn build plan (from volvotreters Downloads section: Download Section ), adjusted to fit the height of your environment, would be a very good start. Build it from 19mm MDF, that will keep the cost down. Volvotreter lists a number of suitable drivers, you might be able to take that information, and come up with something to experiment. The Eminence Definimax 4015LF looks very good in this enclosure.
Build one, see what it does for you.
Regards,
Hi again,
Just tried the Eminence Kappa 15LFA, and it seems to work fine in the simulation.
Let me know if you have one you want me to plug into Hornresp.
Regards,
Just tried the Eminence Kappa 15LFA, and it seems to work fine in the simulation.
Let me know if you have one you want me to plug into Hornresp.
Regards,
Hi, if I wanted to use for my sub a classical solution, for example accorded woofer, what woofer I should choose to have a frequency less than or equal to 20 Hz with a dynamic in line with my Klipschorn? I looked at the site Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components and I saw many interesting woofers as Eminence, Dayton and I have also seen that there are complete kits box + speaker: do you know them? What do you think?
Giuseppe
Giuseppe
I don't think you'll find a sub with a loudness matching a Klipschorn bass.
So the question becomes, who kind of realistic power is needed below 38 Hz? The demands in a single octave can't be too big, even for organ pedals (we heard the Saint-Saens Sym 3 on the weekend at a large church... fabulous).
And even cheap commercial subs with lots of distortion work fine (since the harmonics of a sub are both masked by music and barely audible), if that is their whole role. All you want is adequate air movement down there, whether big cone or big motion.
Ben
So the question becomes, who kind of realistic power is needed below 38 Hz? The demands in a single octave can't be too big, even for organ pedals (we heard the Saint-Saens Sym 3 on the weekend at a large church... fabulous).
And even cheap commercial subs with lots of distortion work fine (since the harmonics of a sub are both masked by music and barely audible), if that is their whole role. All you want is adequate air movement down there, whether big cone or big motion.
Ben
Hi,
thank you Ben for your reply. Part of my LP and CD are for organ: does nobody woofer 15" or 18" exist for this "job"?
Giuseppe
thank you Ben for your reply. Part of my LP and CD are for organ: does nobody woofer 15" or 18" exist for this "job"?
Giuseppe
...another question: I do not understand the connection from Fs and the lowest frequency reproducible in a woofer. Someone can kindly explain to me?
Thanks
Giuseppe
Thanks
Giuseppe
Depends on the "suspension" box and how much you think theory is helpful.
In a sealed box (which has various other advantages over tuned boxes), the resonance of the system is higher than Fs, depending on volume of the box. Output (and our ability to hear it) declines fast below that point. (Which means the driver is "held back" and thus protected!!!!)
For a tuned box (and for a low sub playing one octave, "one-note" boom isn't reaaaaaaly a problem), you don't get much bump at Fs and below that note the loudness declines very very fast. (But the driver is NOT held back and not protected from fierce false motions.)
Despite having a great open baffle sub myself, not ordinarily good as subs.
Aside from using bass horn, Fs pretty much (relatively) how low you can go.
Hint: some folks look at specs for "musical" speakers (like for electric guitars) and they look OK. But the Fs tends to be high and the mechanisms stiff enough to withstand performance and touring stress. Not HiFi.
Ben
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