I like to read review about certain parts sound but I know that YMMV...
I've done a "test psu" for my dac replacing the stock SMPS found inside the unit.(benchmark dac2)
In an external case, I installed 6 1000uf elna silmic II caps running a LCRC power supply.
the smoothed 25ishDC feed a 12Vdc IC style regulator (lm317)
After that, I have two 2 ways switch and my output feed my dac
(The dac have 10uf polypropylene mounted inside and then the 12Vdc feed the DAC DC/DC converter giving +5,+3.3 +18,-18Vdc))
I can choose between. (considering the 10uf mkp in the DAC)
1-Regulator only
2-Elna Silmic ii (470uf)
3-nichicon Muse KZ (470uf)
4-panasonic FC (220uf+220uf or 440uf)
5-Rubicon black gate (470uf)
All the above had been run for 15 hours each at 1.3Amp load( my dac draw around 900ma)
The results are very interesting.
All of the 5 combination sound fairly different.
1-sound neutral but miss some punch, not for me, 5th far behind the 4 others
2-bass heavy, softer midrange, 4th (why people like Silmic, I wonder)
3-seem most balanced overall, 1st choice
4-best treble and details of them all (maybe 2 parallel instead of one help here) 2nd by a thin margin
5-close to 4 but seem to be lower tone on voice, trebble seem a bit recessed 3rd overall.
Too bad, I do not have some munforf AG or pana FM in theses values...
ATB
I've done a "test psu" for my dac replacing the stock SMPS found inside the unit.(benchmark dac2)
In an external case, I installed 6 1000uf elna silmic II caps running a LCRC power supply.
the smoothed 25ishDC feed a 12Vdc IC style regulator (lm317)
After that, I have two 2 ways switch and my output feed my dac
(The dac have 10uf polypropylene mounted inside and then the 12Vdc feed the DAC DC/DC converter giving +5,+3.3 +18,-18Vdc))
I can choose between. (considering the 10uf mkp in the DAC)
1-Regulator only
2-Elna Silmic ii (470uf)
3-nichicon Muse KZ (470uf)
4-panasonic FC (220uf+220uf or 440uf)
5-Rubicon black gate (470uf)
All the above had been run for 15 hours each at 1.3Amp load( my dac draw around 900ma)
The results are very interesting.
All of the 5 combination sound fairly different.
1-sound neutral but miss some punch, not for me, 5th far behind the 4 others
2-bass heavy, softer midrange, 4th (why people like Silmic, I wonder)
3-seem most balanced overall, 1st choice
4-best treble and details of them all (maybe 2 parallel instead of one help here) 2nd by a thin margin
5-close to 4 but seem to be lower tone on voice, trebble seem a bit recessed 3rd overall.
Too bad, I do not have some munforf AG or pana FM in theses values...
ATB
Your saying you hear differences in caps before a lm317. Try a real DBT, and prove it, other wise it's more very unbelievable subjective nonsense.
I have to agree with cbdb.
It sounds placebo.
Also the last time i checked, Panasonic FR had slightly better specs than FM.
It sounds placebo.
Also the last time i checked, Panasonic FR had slightly better specs than FM.
OK, please dont post something like that again ...
First, learn about what is PSU capacitor, what is Elna Silmic II ... And What black gate you use ? PSU or NX or Standard or something ...
Please, avoid non sense posts ...
I like to watch "Alien" and "Terminator" but don't expect any of them come crashing through my window .
From the title, I thought this was about electrolytics connected backwards, complete with the inevitable fragments.
i appreciate the op's comparison.
this is what diy, and this forum, is about.
sharing what one discovers ...
the real nonsense is, because that you can't hear, nobody else can.
that goes for you 2 as well ...
even more nonsense -
this is what diy, and this forum, is about.
sharing what one discovers ...
the real nonsense is, because that you can't hear, nobody else can.
that goes for you 2 as well ...
even more nonsense -
silmic's take weeks to settle in they can sound excellent then like crap I installed a pair of 10uf 100V across my filter caps which really ought to be changed out but cash is not available. The silmic are just over three weeks in and just yesterday started to sound fine and are getting better. Point is fifteen hours is not going to tell you squat. Best regards Moray James.
The capacitors are after the lm317
Before the lm317, I have the LCRC
When I say regulator only, it include the DAC onboard 10UF. (so it is in parallel with any lytic above)
Maybe I should draw the schematic before posting so everything is clear.
I have some friends coming over next week, I will bet my paycheck for a whole month that they will hear a noticeable difference between the 3 biggest change. (reg only,Silmic and Muse KZ)
Between the panasonic FC and the black gate (std), it is harder to notice, you have to listen for a while before switching and then, you notice the voice tonality change.
The change between KZ and Silmic switch is immediately apparent and quite big, like a change of output tube in a tube amp...
I read that the Silmic can take 100hrs+ to settle, I will leave them burning for few days.
Will let you know what my friend thinks in few weeks.
I know some people do not believe in sound change from part swap, I respect those opinions and when I post my impressions, they are not addressed to you...
The person who build something and wonder which parts to buy when buying will find it useful and my comments are aimed at them.
Before the lm317, I have the LCRC
When I say regulator only, it include the DAC onboard 10UF. (so it is in parallel with any lytic above)
Maybe I should draw the schematic before posting so everything is clear.
I have some friends coming over next week, I will bet my paycheck for a whole month that they will hear a noticeable difference between the 3 biggest change. (reg only,Silmic and Muse KZ)
Between the panasonic FC and the black gate (std), it is harder to notice, you have to listen for a while before switching and then, you notice the voice tonality change.
The change between KZ and Silmic switch is immediately apparent and quite big, like a change of output tube in a tube amp...
I read that the Silmic can take 100hrs+ to settle, I will leave them burning for few days.
Will let you know what my friend thinks in few weeks.
I know some people do not believe in sound change from part swap, I respect those opinions and when I post my impressions, they are not addressed to you...
The person who build something and wonder which parts to buy when buying will find it useful and my comments are aimed at them.
You Have some Good friends. Always nice when people "hear" what you what them to. Always bad if we suggest what they should hear.
OK, again Elna Silmic II is not a PSU cap is small signal cap .... capish ? You can compare BG NX with Silmic II but not BG Standard ...
For the blind test, why you don't make 2-3 test PSU and switch them randomly, then ask someone if there is sonic diference ...
Blind testing is the way to go.
If you hear the difference and you like it, that's really all that matters.
If you hear the difference and you like it, that's really all that matters.
First I'd like to thank you for setting up this test. Possible problems like run-in time of caps have been discussed. Another problem that might influence this test is a nasty property series-regulators like the lm3xx have, is that they don't like too low ESR.
On topic. I liked the test-setup and perhaps it's an idea to tackle some of the issues mentioned here first and then repeat the test in a blinded setup with an audience and have them judge, so you can obtain a more objective testresult.
I suggest this, because I know that I am biassed towards my own creations and mods, no matter how hard I try to be aware of them and avoid them. In addition, I considder my hearing to be subjective too.
Cheers,
Edwin
Do you somehow assume the cap bank of Silmics prior to the regulator is inaudible? IME, choke or no choke, it is every bit as audible as any of the other caps you have been comparing. Which makes your dislike for the Silmics interesting... maybe repeating too much of the same signature does snot work well. Would you consider repeating the test using different caps for the raw dc?
Same for Blackgate - 2 or 3 hundred hours to break in. Blackgate caps N and NX series are the best examples of the BG technology, the standard series are not as revealing. Very hard to find the N and NX now , any Blackgates on Ebay are suspect, but new production in 2015 is announced..
Audio Note
Audio Note
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Hi all, I actualy tested in my amp first stage psu filter two different electrolits: Elna Cerafine and Nichi Muse.
Cerafine - BIG sound with waight, enormous dynamics and speed (seems like my amp went on steroids after old Rubicons), huge punchy lows and a bit insolent mids, magic of highs was totaly gone. Great space and soundstage!
Muse - Completely opposite! The sound was softer, slower, weight and bass and mids went two steps backwards. Highs became very apparent and even too much on the highest notes. "Punchiness" average - not too bad. But sound overall was rather thin.
Very big difference between those two. Naither was to my liking as too much of the extremes. What I did? I mixed them. I have put half and half of both types in one rail. And? As you probably suspect I have got halfs from both worlds. The sound became really compromised between those two. And I do like it very much! Sound is punchy but not that much like Cerafine alone, but not so slow as the Muse. It applies to all characteristics of the sound. For now I'm still testing it giving a time for further break in. Please let me know whether is ok to mix two different type of capacitors. But for now to my ears the sound is very good, actually I would say that is exellent!
For the main PSU line I have put all Mundorfs AG. And this was the best upgrade I have ever done to my amp I think. Highly recomended! In one phrase: great balance in all aspects. No need to search further.
Just my findings,
Regards to all
Cerafine - BIG sound with waight, enormous dynamics and speed (seems like my amp went on steroids after old Rubicons), huge punchy lows and a bit insolent mids, magic of highs was totaly gone. Great space and soundstage!
Muse - Completely opposite! The sound was softer, slower, weight and bass and mids went two steps backwards. Highs became very apparent and even too much on the highest notes. "Punchiness" average - not too bad. But sound overall was rather thin.
Very big difference between those two. Naither was to my liking as too much of the extremes. What I did? I mixed them. I have put half and half of both types in one rail. And? As you probably suspect I have got halfs from both worlds. The sound became really compromised between those two. And I do like it very much! Sound is punchy but not that much like Cerafine alone, but not so slow as the Muse. It applies to all characteristics of the sound. For now I'm still testing it giving a time for further break in. Please let me know whether is ok to mix two different type of capacitors. But for now to my ears the sound is very good, actually I would say that is exellent!
For the main PSU line I have put all Mundorfs AG. And this was the best upgrade I have ever done to my amp I think. Highly recomended! In one phrase: great balance in all aspects. No need to search further.
Just my findings,
Regards to all
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