Personally I cannot see anything the 'Hirata test' would tell us that we don't know yet and/or don't know how to measure with all that new-fangled digital test stuff we have available.
Also, the amps that figure in the Hirata paper don't seem to be as good as the ones we have today.
This may have been an eye-opener 40 years ago, just like the 'TIM' story was an eye-opener 40 years ago.
We got it, applied it and moved on. Yawn.
Jan
Also, the amps that figure in the Hirata paper don't seem to be as good as the ones we have today.
This may have been an eye-opener 40 years ago, just like the 'TIM' story was an eye-opener 40 years ago.
We got it, applied it and moved on. Yawn.
Jan
I would be surprised if all amps and preamps made today don't have any Hirata distortion. That is why it is important to discuss it.
It's important for us to discuss it because you would be surprised? Not for me - I need solid reasons before I spend time on something that looks like a ghost chase to me.
But I would certainly welcome to read about any Hirata measurements you're doing these days.
Jan
And in that act, you SY, find yourself going mirrored and circular. The danger point.
In all earnest, a lack of differential, is sameness - is death. Stillness in all things, mundane and quantum.
To live and grow, is to embrace difference and things we do not hold as knowns. To risk and seek, in the things and ways that we do not know.
To do otherwise, is to spiral into stillness, and death.
This point holds, in the quantum multidimensional aspects of particle physics, all the way up into a mind in a human, making subjective measurements of 'reality'. Ultimately it is all subjective, to any form of a 'human', no matter how we may try.
It is those differentials that allow for the very formation of reality, so to deny them is to die inside, to a frozen nothing...on multiple levels.
Last edited:
KBK,
Sorry if I don't follow your religious example of closing the loop so to say. For those who believe they can hear a difference between the directionality of a cable are you saying that if you can hear a difference at the speaker end of the chain there would be no measurable differences?
John why do you assume that I was talking about the interconnects and not the speaker cables? If you can say it matters on the interconnects wouldn't the same hold true for the speaker cables? I am not talking about cables that have some sort of filter attached be it a ferrite bead or anything else, but a simple braided wire used to connect a speaker. If you can hear that you can measure that, it is no longer a simple low level signal you are talking about here. You can't say it is only a phenomena of interconnects and not speaker wires as they would follow the same rules, where is there any evidence of this phenomena that we can hear and not measure? I would be hard pressed to believe that either JN or Scott wouldn't have sensitive enough differential analysis equipment not to be able to differentiate a change in the signal at the speaker end of a cable. It is only conjecture on my part but it would seem that this phenomena would hold true at all levels of connections whether they were the traces on a pcb or the leads of a capacitor or transistor that if the directionality of the basic metals was a factor it would hold in every position not just a speaker wire or interconnect, but in every lead of every device.
Sorry if I don't follow your religious example of closing the loop so to say. For those who believe they can hear a difference between the directionality of a cable are you saying that if you can hear a difference at the speaker end of the chain there would be no measurable differences?
John why do you assume that I was talking about the interconnects and not the speaker cables? If you can say it matters on the interconnects wouldn't the same hold true for the speaker cables? I am not talking about cables that have some sort of filter attached be it a ferrite bead or anything else, but a simple braided wire used to connect a speaker. If you can hear that you can measure that, it is no longer a simple low level signal you are talking about here. You can't say it is only a phenomena of interconnects and not speaker wires as they would follow the same rules, where is there any evidence of this phenomena that we can hear and not measure? I would be hard pressed to believe that either JN or Scott wouldn't have sensitive enough differential analysis equipment not to be able to differentiate a change in the signal at the speaker end of a cable. It is only conjecture on my part but it would seem that this phenomena would hold true at all levels of connections whether they were the traces on a pcb or the leads of a capacitor or transistor that if the directionality of the basic metals was a factor it would hold in every position not just a speaker wire or interconnect, but in every lead of every device.
John's current claim is that he doesn't measure any competitive gear and that he knows some design secrets to avoid soi-disant "Hirata Distortion." So he cannot by definition have any actual data. His claim of being sure that it's still a problem is based on "intuition."
Perhaps the more appropriate reference is Uri Geller.
Well I guess that the Hirata distortion paper is beyond most of you, but it does show the sort of distortion that might be called 'exotic'. I have also shown an example with my discrete op amp board as to where 'fixing' one thing (exact AC balance) causes something else: Namely Hirata distortion.
I considered this important to ME, because the discrete op board was used as the basis for three 30ips analog tape machines and two eight channel studio boards, including one for Crystal Clear, and Elliot Mazer.
If I had used my AC balance, I would have ADDED Hirata distortion in all of these products. This is just one thing that I learned by looking beyond sine wave measurements.
I considered this important to ME, because the discrete op board was used as the basis for three 30ips analog tape machines and two eight channel studio boards, including one for Crystal Clear, and Elliot Mazer.
If I had used my AC balance, I would have ADDED Hirata distortion in all of these products. This is just one thing that I learned by looking beyond sine wave measurements.
I believe I'm the one that brought Ordinary Magnetoresistance, the Corbino Disk (Scott too, independently, I believe) to the table, if the geometry pushes the wire out of coaxial symmetry, solenoid mag field adds components that cause the Lorentz Force to modulate the charge carrier path lengths...
...then maybe you have something that affects 100 T pulsed magnet design
so to see this at audio frequency I need cm thick Cu? or turn up the window unit til I have air condensing on my speaker cable?
Why don't you actually do a search. It just might turn up something. I often show my system for measuring distortion in wire and that it is directional. A search just might get you the observations from one of those folks.
I was getting to what may cause the issue and how to measure it before the noise level got annoyingly high.
Scott, why do you insist on nonsense such as perfect capacitors, you among others have mentioned that internal losses may be modeled as resistor type noise sources. I have shown the vibration induced noise from the V dc/dt component. It is inherent in all capacitors. Turns out it is simple to design out if you know that it is there.
I have found over the years many audio engineers operate in their own self created hermetic mode. Look at how few references they quote outside their community, even on the basics.
One possible source of this lore is that line level interconnects commonly have the shield connected at one end only. Specifics of the local interfering field could make them prefer the shield grounded at source or at termination. This could then get generalized to a blanket "directivity" of wires. Silly maybe, but human.
Thanks,
Chris
ES,
I am not one to disagree with your measurement techniques or statements of fact or information. What is hard for me to follow with your posts, and you are not the only one who does this is that you start things off as very vague questions that only a few like Scott or JN would really understand at that level, and even they question the accuracy or details of the questions. It would be much clearer and easier if you are trying to help educate us Luddites if you would state your case clearly so we can understand what it is you are saying and how you came to that conclusion. I try to read everything with an open mind, but sometimes asking a technical question that is over my head or others comprehension and then others getting into these battles just makes this thread a cluster "F" if you get my meaning. If we are hear to learn from one another it would help if questions or information was given in a clear fashion and not as a game show question format. Perhaps we aren't really here to learn but for some to just show off their superiority over the masses.
I am not one to disagree with your measurement techniques or statements of fact or information. What is hard for me to follow with your posts, and you are not the only one who does this is that you start things off as very vague questions that only a few like Scott or JN would really understand at that level, and even they question the accuracy or details of the questions. It would be much clearer and easier if you are trying to help educate us Luddites if you would state your case clearly so we can understand what it is you are saying and how you came to that conclusion. I try to read everything with an open mind, but sometimes asking a technical question that is over my head or others comprehension and then others getting into these battles just makes this thread a cluster "F" if you get my meaning. If we are hear to learn from one another it would help if questions or information was given in a clear fashion and not as a game show question format. Perhaps we aren't really here to learn but for some to just show off their superiority over the masses.
Where did I say that? You and Frank please download the schematics for an AP it includes the BOM. Find all the precious audiophile approved components.
You do just what you accuse me of, the non-idealities of capacitors have been studied for years and folks have been designing around the problems for just as long, I have never said anything otherwise.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.