I'd like to open up discussion about a different issue here - crossover "integration". By the way I use SEAS L26ROY in sealed 25 liter cabins.
The Opener says he will use minidsp or something alike - this is very good news! I am a minidsp user with a 4-way speaker pair and I am very happy with the result I get with "stereo subs". I have also a separate subwoofer but I don't use it with these, except sometimes just for fun with movies. Other setups have 1-2 subs with Hypex plate amps.
The best advantage of minidsp is that you can use parametric eq and delay sto match the subs to mains. The key to this is acoustic measurements in the room. Phase match is a result of smooth and "by book" acoustic responses and proper time-alignment. I was surprised of the importance of the latter. I have ended with 1ms delay for the main speaker (3-way dipole) that sits on top of the subwoofer cabinet, xo LR4@150Hz. This delay can not be achieved with a subwoofer amp's phase shift dial as it only makes delay to the sub. The slanted cabinet that LineSource suggests is a step in the right direction, but perhaps not sufficient. (1ms is ~1' or 33cm)
Other good thing about dsp is that you can easily try different xo frequencies and slopes. Speaker placement and room modes work a little different for the sub an M drivers and the best combination can not be known, it must be found by testing, measuring and listening to several options.
The Opener says he will use minidsp or something alike - this is very good news! I am a minidsp user with a 4-way speaker pair and I am very happy with the result I get with "stereo subs". I have also a separate subwoofer but I don't use it with these, except sometimes just for fun with movies. Other setups have 1-2 subs with Hypex plate amps.
The best advantage of minidsp is that you can use parametric eq and delay sto match the subs to mains. The key to this is acoustic measurements in the room. Phase match is a result of smooth and "by book" acoustic responses and proper time-alignment. I was surprised of the importance of the latter. I have ended with 1ms delay for the main speaker (3-way dipole) that sits on top of the subwoofer cabinet, xo LR4@150Hz. This delay can not be achieved with a subwoofer amp's phase shift dial as it only makes delay to the sub. The slanted cabinet that LineSource suggests is a step in the right direction, but perhaps not sufficient. (1ms is ~1' or 33cm)
Other good thing about dsp is that you can easily try different xo frequencies and slopes. Speaker placement and room modes work a little different for the sub an M drivers and the best combination can not be known, it must be found by testing, measuring and listening to several options.
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The SB Acoustics SW26DAC76-8 subwoofer looks great and has an extended response in a sealed cab without EQ.
Where is the best place in your room to locate the speakers?
What is the best height for the woofer in your room?
---You might be able use an angled baffle to obtain the correct M-W time alignment at the selected height. Physical align typically more natural than DSP align.
You can get a "reasonable" idea of the best woofer placement (HxWxD) in your room using simulators like:
Jeff Bagby Baffle Edge Diffraction Simulator 1.20
Paul Verdone Baffle Diffraction Simulator
Near floor woofer placement reduces floor bounce, but may not produce flattest SPL when wall effects are included.
Experiment with larger edge radius.
You (or DIY friends) will need to mount each driver on a flat baffle and send a square wave to measure absolutel delay time for physical alignment.
Sine(13degrees) * ~24”height between M --> W = ~5.4” physical offset for time alignment
The Kairos has a 13 degree slant to the front baffle. If we continue this 13 degree slant on the bottom woofer baffle we have a between 5" and 6" physical horizontal offset between the midrange and near-floor woofer baffle mounts.
Floor bounce calculator here Floor/Ceiling Reflection Calculator
When additional subwoofer is used, floor bounce cancellation is not a problem for it! Kairos woofer at 80cm height gives floor cancellation at 315Hz.
Slanted baffle gives offset to hep time alignment, but when a dsp devece is available, it is surperior because you can set slopes and delay based on measurements is real/final environment! You will see from measurements that the sub and the woofer of Kairos' give very different room responses (bumps and dips in response) at same frequencies! Where responses overlap, each driver's "peculiarities" get alleviated.
When additional subwoofer is used, floor bounce cancellation is not a problem for it! Kairos woofer at 80cm height gives floor cancellation at 315Hz.
Slanted baffle gives offset to hep time alignment, but when a dsp devece is available, it is surperior because you can set slopes and delay based on measurements is real/final environment! You will see from measurements that the sub and the woofer of Kairos' give very different room responses (bumps and dips in response) at same frequencies! Where responses overlap, each driver's "peculiarities" get alleviated.
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If I were you I would go for one of the GR/Rythmic subwoofers, either 1 x 12" inch below each Satori or 2 x 8" just released subs. The 2 x 8" inch will look really cooland will alow you to keep the box as slim as the satori.
I have 2 of the 12" in my system and they are the most musical subs around.
I have 2 of the 12" in my system and they are the most musical subs around.
This was going to be one of my other suggestions.. but then price was considered. 😱
If I were you I would save for a few months more and do this. You will not regret it. The feedback amps also have full peq and I promise you will not look back😉
I have read these GR subs and amps are quite good. And the adjustable boost is nice. But I think active room-specific equalization is on another level. The MiniDSP or Behringer Inuke are an entire step up in adjustability. I think I'm closing in on a good deal for two 10" Acoustic Elegance drivers, which I'll pair with a miniDSP. If that doesn't work...
yes do that, its much more cheaper too.
with my subs, I use a minidsp and it works great since you can adjust the delay between the mains and the subs and also have really steep slope which make the intgration perfect.
what's more important in adding the bass modules is to high pass the Satori monitor, you will hear a significant increase of midrange qualities than just get extra BASS 🙂
I wouldnt do that. I dont mind the subwoofer be processed by the minidsp since its only sub frequencies and we arent too sensitive, but the minidsp is doing a/d then d/a so its undesirable for the mains.
What I do with my HT system is this.
I use a b1 preamp, one output goes into the minidsp then subamp and one output goes directly into my amp for the main, therefore bypassing the minidsp for the main speakers.
I have two different output in my pass b1, and theres one with a first order highpass set at the desired FREQ, for me its 60hz. Its really simple to add a simple highpass in a preamp.
voila!
for the satori, I wouldnt want to affect its response too much, so I would highpass around 40hz, not higher imo.
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i was talking in general not restricted to miniDSP and what you did with B1 (or B5??) is the example.
although if you can HP >200hz will be better with the right bass modules (not sub), of course depending how loud and how big your room is, but less work for satori at bass freq is better.
sure, but I wouldnt cut the mains at 200hz. part of the satori and its strenght is the beautiful coherancy from bass to highs and crossing it at 200hz could likely make the system worst. worth a try though if he has stereo woofer. but I wouldn t do a 200hz with subs, only woofers.
hence...,
to me bass modules is NOT subwoofers, to me SUBWOOFERS is below 60hz 🙂
The TD10S with Qts=0.34 would be a GREAT woofer. The TD10X with Qts=0.27 is also very good with equalization in a sealed box. These have hand coated foam surrounds for Xmax = 14mm. I would Xover the Kairos at 80-100Hz, as I think it is important to keep coherent male voices on the midrange.
If you can get a good price on the TD10M with cloth surround you should give serious consideration to a higher efficiency(~92db/2.83V) design(the Kairos is only Sensitivity: 85.5dB / 2.83V), as a "put in the closet" for a next project. With separate top and bottom cabinets, you can always try a TD10M + 60x40 waveguide control directivity in your small room. There are DIY Xovers available for this combination.
Draw a picture of your listening room and sketch in 60 degree horizontal tweeter directivity patterns to see how much short delay side wall reflections are removed. The 40 degree vertical tweeter directivity pattern will remove floor/ceiling short delay reflections. Something to try before you die. 😀
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The problem with driving only sub through minidsp is delay. It might happen that way that you must delay main drivers! Then you also loose the ability to cut and shape main speaker's low end(HP). Response shaping and phase matching is very very important for good bass! minidsp system has changed the whole subwoofer integration issue to another level from plate amps!
If one is questioning the ADA conversion of 2x4, go and buy 4x8, it has a better chip + more channels. I use 4x10HD which has digital input too.
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true that, but I would do anything to be able to place the subwoofer closer to the listening position then the mains so you dont have to make the whole chain for the mains going thrue a minidsp, I just wouldnt do it. I have done the test, and the mini dsp is not perfectly transparent.
Also, the optimal placement for a subwoofer is often near the listening position so the delay will be for the subwoofer.
Yeah, minidsp makes it so easy for subwoofer integreation!
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