It only proves that some speakers the type of Linkwitz, 3-Way's and others are really bad...
(After saying this...) A good speaker will never need a sub if it plays (already LF) in stereo. That's the (wrong) concept anyway. It can be wrong (the design concept) from the beginning or not.
Then if you buy or build a FR or small type satellite or PA you will need them for sure. If you want LFE effects (that crack your had open) then fine, bring some... ("Linkwitzs")
In one point you are right, that the OP and you are using the same extended range or FR Satoris drivers (Kairos 2-ways).
It's also funny (diy it's supposed to be fun, anyway) because you go to the market buy a 2-way (as an example) an then the following week or month you come to diyAudio to build the subs. NPI 🙂
I know what "some" are going to say... JBL (speakers) don't have LF extension (not SB) and they need car sub drivers, etc, etc. 😀
I can't speak for the OP, but this IS my design concept from the ground up. I want a full range speaker with equalized bass. That isn't necessarily a subwoofer. I don't need full SPL at 10hz. From what I can tell, the Satori tweeter and midwoof, mated to a bass module is the equivalent of a Wilson Audio product (minus the fancy composite cabinets) with the added advantage of active EQ to adjust for room gains. All in a smaller package (and $10K less). It's a little unclear what kind of bass driver Wilson uses, but the L26 or TC sounds options appear to be about as good as available.
Not really. The Satori midwoof is the same as the Wilson Sasha. And it's a MT / Bass module arrangement. In concept, design, and materials, they share a good deal in common.
Yes, even Wilson’s flagship $200,000 Alexandria XLF uses the Satori driver as their mid. Also i’d put my money on Jeff Bagby’s crossover design over anything Wilson sells, but that’s neither here nor there.
Personally, if space allows it, i’ll take 2-ways and properly integrated subwoofers over full range speakers any day of the week. Alot of times, where you end up placing your mains are not the ideal spots for bass positioning in the room. Yes acoustic treatment and EQ will help to a certain extent. I like the idea of getting it right from the get-go by placing multiple subs in their ideal spots to minimize room modes, then using bass traps and EQ to further perfect the sound.
I have an amp that can put out good power so I may go for the LMS-R over the Epic. I’ve read 2 LMS-R’s are nearly equal to the sound and performance of the LMS-U 5400. The smaller woofers by SB/Seas/SS are also a viable candidate but I figure why not go for larger surface area. The additional cost and increase in size I feel is pretty minimal and I can always dial the output using the Behringer amp + DSP.
Personally, if space allows it, i’ll take 2-ways and properly integrated subwoofers over full range speakers any day of the week. Alot of times, where you end up placing your mains are not the ideal spots for bass positioning in the room. Yes acoustic treatment and EQ will help to a certain extent. I like the idea of getting it right from the get-go by placing multiple subs in their ideal spots to minimize room modes, then using bass traps and EQ to further perfect the sound.
I have an amp that can put out good power so I may go for the LMS-R over the Epic. I’ve read 2 LMS-R’s are nearly equal to the sound and performance of the LMS-U 5400. The smaller woofers by SB/Seas/SS are also a viable candidate but I figure why not go for larger surface area. The additional cost and increase in size I feel is pretty minimal and I can always dial the output using the Behringer amp + DSP.
OP, followed your link from TechTalk... I don't get the super sub obsession with your exceptional choice in the Kairos. I think the advice you got on page 1 regarding the SB Acoustics 12 inch woofer was a nice match especially if you were going to attempt a passive crossover. Even though you said "no biamping" on the other forum, I am assuming you really want to go active crossover and power amp for the woofers. If your priority is massive SPL and dynamics with low distortion, then I would not build around the Kairos. If it is pure quality and just covering the Kairos with a solid foundation for music, I would look real hard at the SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 or for something in a more narrow cabinet that might compliment the Kairos even better, give the Rythmik/GR 8 inch servo subs in a sealed cabinet with Hypex amps. You could build your own version of the Watt Puppies and probably exceed them with the right cabinet construction.
I am with Calvin. My computer set up consists of two Tannoy studio monitors, with a TC epic 12" in a sealed 24" squared mdf cabinet, powered by a Apex jr Senior amp. With no E.Q. at all, just straight up line level, It rocks the house. Nice tight, pitched defined bass. Two of them coupled to really nice monitors/bookshelves would be really nice, and comparatively cheap. If I were to try to put those same Tannoy monitors with my main rigs dual 18s? Ludicrous imbalance. Those Epics are not to be taken lightly. My only regret is I only bought one, when Parts Express was selling them for $100 each a few years ago.
Well 2 things. The reason why I was heavily considering bigger 15" or 18" woofer is because i'm actually planning on having the subwoofer cabinets built and veneered by a company. So the initial cost of investment is already up there, and the difference in cost between say a smaller 10"/12" and a bigger 18" configuration is nearly negligible. Just an example...say I can find a nice 60 watt ATI power amp for $600, and I also have the option to buy one of their higher end, fully balanced models that puts out 300wpc for only $200 more. Although I probably won't ever need that power, I think it's a no brainer to go for the higher end model and it would definitely be nice to have options (and headroom.) I have a very capable pro amp to use for my subs and I can EQ the DSP to my liking, so I figure why not? Many people who've heard the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" say it's undoubtedly the best subwoofer they've heard for music.
Secondly, I listen to all types of music. Everything from classical to jazz to R&B to really bass heavy electronic music. I don't think an 8" woofer is going to cut it for certain types of music I listen to. I have a pair of 2400W SubMersive subs with dual-opposed 15” drivers, and I have it in a system with 87dB sensitive 'hi-fi' towers that utilize SB Acoustic 23NRXS45 8” woofers. The towers put out pretty decent bass (F3 of 31Hz). For alot of music, the low-end is comparable with the SubMersives off and the SubMersives on. For other music (e.g. James Blake - Limit To Your Love) there’s just no comparison, the SubMersives wipe the floor with the mains. I think one of the obvious signs of a really competent sub is that it sits back and remains smooth and seamless for music with subtle bass content, but when called upon it bites hard and sharp and hits those notes without breaking a sweat. If I ever feel the bass is a little overpowering, I can always set the gain back a few dB and if I feel the need to rock out, I can do so without worrying that there’s something missing. Most people who drive Corvettes rarely ever utilize the capabilities of it’s engine but you’ll never hear them complain and utter the statement “Damn, I should of went for a Camry. This is total overkill.” Most of the time, my listening is at a relatively meager volume level and many times I enjoy putting on a jazz record and relaxing. The other 10% of the time I like to go all out. I just want to make sure my system is duly capable in both occasions.
I’m not saying the options presented in this thread don’t have the ability to reproduce substantial low-end content. That’s pretty much why I created this thread, i’m looking for what options I have. Just my line of thinking but I appreciate all the input and will certainly look into and consider all the options.
What would be an optimal sealed cab size for dual opposed Epic 12”s? 😀
Secondly, I listen to all types of music. Everything from classical to jazz to R&B to really bass heavy electronic music. I don't think an 8" woofer is going to cut it for certain types of music I listen to. I have a pair of 2400W SubMersive subs with dual-opposed 15” drivers, and I have it in a system with 87dB sensitive 'hi-fi' towers that utilize SB Acoustic 23NRXS45 8” woofers. The towers put out pretty decent bass (F3 of 31Hz). For alot of music, the low-end is comparable with the SubMersives off and the SubMersives on. For other music (e.g. James Blake - Limit To Your Love) there’s just no comparison, the SubMersives wipe the floor with the mains. I think one of the obvious signs of a really competent sub is that it sits back and remains smooth and seamless for music with subtle bass content, but when called upon it bites hard and sharp and hits those notes without breaking a sweat. If I ever feel the bass is a little overpowering, I can always set the gain back a few dB and if I feel the need to rock out, I can do so without worrying that there’s something missing. Most people who drive Corvettes rarely ever utilize the capabilities of it’s engine but you’ll never hear them complain and utter the statement “Damn, I should of went for a Camry. This is total overkill.” Most of the time, my listening is at a relatively meager volume level and many times I enjoy putting on a jazz record and relaxing. The other 10% of the time I like to go all out. I just want to make sure my system is duly capable in both occasions.
I’m not saying the options presented in this thread don’t have the ability to reproduce substantial low-end content. That’s pretty much why I created this thread, i’m looking for what options I have. Just my line of thinking but I appreciate all the input and will certainly look into and consider all the options.
What would be an optimal sealed cab size for dual opposed Epic 12”s? 😀
I don't sell shirts, but... (we will never know.) 😀
Do you mean sealed?
Q. ""What would be an optimal sealed cab size for dual opposed Epic 12”s?""
A. What do you mean?
(my mind works at slow speed...) You will have to explain in detail. 🙂
What about the Qtc you are going to use, generally DSP/EQ are small volume (~40L) and boosted are large enclosures (~400L) but you already mentioned "ideal" (ideal for a musical sub is 0.707 Q sealed).
Epic Driver | TC Sounds
http://tcsounds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Epic-12-Owner-Manual.pdf
With 2x subs in parallel:
2x TC SOUND EPIC 12 DVC v2014 (S)*, VB = 95.0 L, (QTC = 0.707), 95.7 dB/2.83V/m (2x drivers in parallel/*coils in series)
Power needed (before EQ/RMS) P 760.3 W@4 Ohms (~1.9 Ohms)
Thermal attenuation: ~4.4 dB
Max SPL (@spec excursion/power & after TA): 113.8 dB (@1 meter/1 enclosure)
Do you mean sealed?
Q. ""What would be an optimal sealed cab size for dual opposed Epic 12”s?""
A. What do you mean?
(my mind works at slow speed...) You will have to explain in detail. 🙂
What about the Qtc you are going to use, generally DSP/EQ are small volume (~40L) and boosted are large enclosures (~400L) but you already mentioned "ideal" (ideal for a musical sub is 0.707 Q sealed).
Epic Driver | TC Sounds
http://tcsounds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Epic-12-Owner-Manual.pdf
With 2x subs in parallel:
2x TC SOUND EPIC 12 DVC v2014 (S)*, VB = 95.0 L, (QTC = 0.707), 95.7 dB/2.83V/m (2x drivers in parallel/*coils in series)
Power needed (before EQ/RMS) P 760.3 W@4 Ohms (~1.9 Ohms)
Thermal attenuation: ~4.4 dB
Max SPL (@spec excursion/power & after TA): 113.8 dB (@1 meter/1 enclosure)
Hi,
I certainly would recommend the "bigger is better" option.
But as I said before, the sub needs to fit the room.
Too large subs kind of overpower the room and the rest of the acoustic signal.
Turning the volume down doesn´t help much as those ´giants´ tend to be audible at any level.
If You like that go ahead, if not You may want to test it first.
Two LMS-R15 could shovel the same amount of air volume -geometric linear displacement of 4,12Liters each- as one LMS-U 5400 can, 8.05Liters at higher cost and more cabinet volume.
The possbility to mount them in pushpush and to use two amplifiers of lower wattage hould not be underestimated.
Btw: If You´re into really Big Boobs You may take a lok at Powersofts IPAL system, which combines a very special 18" or 21" with a special class-D amp with DSP controller and kind of digital loop pressure feedback system.
jauu
Calvin
I certainly would recommend the "bigger is better" option.
But as I said before, the sub needs to fit the room.
Too large subs kind of overpower the room and the rest of the acoustic signal.
Turning the volume down doesn´t help much as those ´giants´ tend to be audible at any level.
If You like that go ahead, if not You may want to test it first.
Two LMS-R15 could shovel the same amount of air volume -geometric linear displacement of 4,12Liters each- as one LMS-U 5400 can, 8.05Liters at higher cost and more cabinet volume.
The possbility to mount them in pushpush and to use two amplifiers of lower wattage hould not be underestimated.
Btw: If You´re into really Big Boobs You may take a lok at Powersofts IPAL system, which combines a very special 18" or 21" with a special class-D amp with DSP controller and kind of digital loop pressure feedback system.
jauu
Calvin
If you have the $$$ and you want the best, than by all means get a pair of LMS ultra's. Absolutely beautiful overkill. What the hell, you only live once. The NU 6000 does indeed have a pair of volume knobs. LOL! A good friend of mine has the Seaton submersive's and really loves them too.
I think I will go for the TC Sounds Epic 12", 4 of them in 2 cabs.
Yup, sealed with QTC of .707 sounds good (I really need to try out WinISD but currently not running Windows on my laptop.) I want to do a dual-opposed alignment in a sealed cabinet with 2 Epic 12"s, similar to the SubMersive:
95 L, so around 3.3 cubic feet? Wiring the 4 ohm DVC's in series = 8 ohm load, which should be perfect as the iNuke 6000DSP should put out 1,000W RMS @ 8 ohms per channel.
Yup, sealed with QTC of .707 sounds good (I really need to try out WinISD but currently not running Windows on my laptop.) I want to do a dual-opposed alignment in a sealed cabinet with 2 Epic 12"s, similar to the SubMersive:
95 L, so around 3.3 cubic feet? Wiring the 4 ohm DVC's in series = 8 ohm load, which should be perfect as the iNuke 6000DSP should put out 1,000W RMS @ 8 ohms per channel.
I don't know about that arrangement, my simulation was only for a sealed dual.
Doesn't the back wave cancel, cardioid or something.
I never simulated this arrangement you mention, I leave it for someone that knows.
Regards.
Doesn't the back wave cancel, cardioid or something.
I never simulated this arrangement you mention, I leave it for someone that knows.
Regards.
try Qtc 0.6
look at when smaller and bigger box affects Qtc, and where a biger box changes ditto, and choose somewhere in between
minimises the risk of wrong box due to spec deviations
I'm sure statictic would show what to expect
like, Fs is never lower
look at when smaller and bigger box affects Qtc, and where a biger box changes ditto, and choose somewhere in between
minimises the risk of wrong box due to spec deviations
I'm sure statictic would show what to expect
like, Fs is never lower
Hi,
sometimes its just funny how people follow certain common beliefs without thinkin just one second about the application itself and the relevance of that belief in regard to the application. 🙄
Q: why should a Qtb of 0.707 (sic! 3 digits!) be optimal here?
A: don't know. It only applies to drivers whiches working range include their fb.
Q: what role does Qtb play within the working range?
A: a minor one and only in a small range around fb
Q: what happens if we place fb close to the edge or even outside the working range?
A: Qtb becomes irrelevant.
So we have a situation here, where a higher Qtb than .7 might place the fb just at the very end of or above the working range.
With midrangers and tweeters the Fs/fb is typically found well outside the working range.
With most woofer applications we unfortunately must live with the burdon of the fb beeing right within the working range.
Here we find the fortunate condition that we could place fb outside this range.
The sub would fully work below resonance, hence the irrelevance of Qtb for the outcome.
Even Qtbs of >>1 don't matter for this application if xovered low enough.
What counts is to keep the air volume just large enough so that the air spring remains linear or introduces just negligible non linearity.
So we have a case here, where a smaller volume/higher Qtb/higher fb may be advantageous.
jauu
Calvin
ps. asked if the optimum distribution character were a point source probabely 95 of hundred would answer with "Yes".
The remaining 5% will think about it and answer: "For most practical cases, No!"
sometimes its just funny how people follow certain common beliefs without thinkin just one second about the application itself and the relevance of that belief in regard to the application. 🙄
Q: why should a Qtb of 0.707 (sic! 3 digits!) be optimal here?
A: don't know. It only applies to drivers whiches working range include their fb.
Q: what role does Qtb play within the working range?
A: a minor one and only in a small range around fb
Q: what happens if we place fb close to the edge or even outside the working range?
A: Qtb becomes irrelevant.
So we have a situation here, where a higher Qtb than .7 might place the fb just at the very end of or above the working range.
With midrangers and tweeters the Fs/fb is typically found well outside the working range.
With most woofer applications we unfortunately must live with the burdon of the fb beeing right within the working range.
Here we find the fortunate condition that we could place fb outside this range.
The sub would fully work below resonance, hence the irrelevance of Qtb for the outcome.
Even Qtbs of >>1 don't matter for this application if xovered low enough.
What counts is to keep the air volume just large enough so that the air spring remains linear or introduces just negligible non linearity.
So we have a case here, where a smaller volume/higher Qtb/higher fb may be advantageous.
jauu
Calvin
ps. asked if the optimum distribution character were a point source probabely 95 of hundred would answer with "Yes".
The remaining 5% will think about it and answer: "For most practical cases, No!"
Hi swegen.
Just some more food for thought: how about a push-pull arrangement, and how about Linkwitz transform equalization?
Linkwitz Transform Subwoofer Equaliser
I agree with Calvin on box size. Let me add that the box size should be designed to provide the best overall performance with the choosen equalization, basically, the smaller box will give a straighter slope, a slightly lower unequalized output at the low end, and the smaller box size will reduce the displacement of the diaphragm (allowing higher input power) by providing a stiffer air spring.
And, just in case you don't have a mental image of the size of a dual 12in driver sealed box I'll attach a sketch I made a while back for the JBL GTO1214 (just for the box sizes). I seem to remember that the smaller box was app. Vnet=2.5ft^3, and the larger box was Vnet=3.8ft^3 (?).
Regards,
Just some more food for thought: how about a push-pull arrangement, and how about Linkwitz transform equalization?
Linkwitz Transform Subwoofer Equaliser
I agree with Calvin on box size. Let me add that the box size should be designed to provide the best overall performance with the choosen equalization, basically, the smaller box will give a straighter slope, a slightly lower unequalized output at the low end, and the smaller box size will reduce the displacement of the diaphragm (allowing higher input power) by providing a stiffer air spring.
And, just in case you don't have a mental image of the size of a dual 12in driver sealed box I'll attach a sketch I made a while back for the JBL GTO1214 (just for the box sizes). I seem to remember that the smaller box was app. Vnet=2.5ft^3, and the larger box was Vnet=3.8ft^3 (?).
Regards,
Sealed with 2 drivers in parallel (as above post#31), 95L (~0.7Q):
2x 12 inch - 5 liters average
100L = 3.53ft³ (net)
You ask with drivers in series so (new simulation), 😀
Sealed with 2 drivers in series, 87L (~0.7Q):
2x 12 inch - 5 liters average
92L = 3.25ft³ (net)
With 2x subs in series:
2x TC SOUND EPIC 12 DVC, VB = 87.0 L, (~0.7Q), 90.0 dB/2.83V/m (2x drivers in series + coils in series)
Power needed (before EQ/RMS) P 828.3 W@4 Ohms (Re 7.32 Ohms/DC) - V 77.87 V - SPL 118.8 dB
Thermal attenuation: ~4.5 dB
Max SPL (@spec excursion, power & TA): 114.3 dB (@1 meter/1 enclosure)
Relevance of Q
Maybe not to everything (maybe there's something missing here that I'm not aware of, yet...), that's why, maybe you are just making generalizations that do not have an application here. Let's see that the Fsb of driver (23.8 Hz, driver in enclosure T/S, not Fs) and enclosure Fc (41.9 Hz) are in perfect response range practicability of the driver/speaker with a ~0.7Q. So I don't understand how they can be above or below... Just to mention the first fact. Then to have o lower F3 you can go a little higher, but not above ~0.8Q.
F3 = 49.5 Hz with 0.6Q (148 L) - by tinitus
F3 = 46.4 Hz with 0.7Q (90 L)
F3 = 46.0 Hz with 0.8Q (60 L)
F3 = 48.0 Hz with 0.95Q (40 L)
The graph below is for a similar driver with Fs 25Hz and Qts 0.36.
I don't think so. 😀
Maybe not to everything (maybe there's something missing here that I'm not aware of, yet...), that's why, maybe you are just making generalizations that do not have an application here. Let's see that the Fsb of driver (23.8 Hz, driver in enclosure T/S, not Fs) and enclosure Fc (41.9 Hz) are in perfect response range practicability of the driver/speaker with a ~0.7Q. So I don't understand how they can be above or below... Just to mention the first fact. Then to have o lower F3 you can go a little higher, but not above ~0.8Q.
F3 = 49.5 Hz with 0.6Q (148 L) - by tinitus
F3 = 46.4 Hz with 0.7Q (90 L)
F3 = 46.0 Hz with 0.8Q (60 L)
F3 = 48.0 Hz with 0.95Q (40 L)
The graph below is for a similar driver with Fs 25Hz and Qts 0.36.
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