Is it the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400?
I want to build 1 or perhaps 2 subwoofers for a 2 channel stereo setup, crossing to bookshelf monitors. I plan on using an iNuke 6000 DSP to power the bass.
Does the LMS-U take the cake when it comes to sound quality for music? What other viable options are there?
I want to build 1 or perhaps 2 subwoofers for a 2 channel stereo setup, crossing to bookshelf monitors. I plan on using an iNuke 6000 DSP to power the bass.
Does the LMS-U take the cake when it comes to sound quality for music? What other viable options are there?
No, to first question. (In the list there are probably hundred of drivers from thousands in the market).
Yes to the second. It's being used worldwide, also in studio rooms (they might not know of a better one to compare with). Or the location might also play a role like if you are overseas or not.
Nuff said, it's a very good driver that looks good.
To start looking at your question (best list) I need to know what sealed internal volume (net) are you speaking about... And when you say music I also take it in consideration that you are designing a subwoofer only and not a passive 3-way type speaker with different optimal Q relations for crossover and desired frequency output.
Also it helps to know what speakers are you going to use with the subs for satellites, plus the room/studio type and dimensions (some people come back later saying it's for a car). 😀
Yes to the second. It's being used worldwide, also in studio rooms (they might not know of a better one to compare with). Or the location might also play a role like if you are overseas or not.
Nuff said, it's a very good driver that looks good.
To start looking at your question (best list) I need to know what sealed internal volume (net) are you speaking about... And when you say music I also take it in consideration that you are designing a subwoofer only and not a passive 3-way type speaker with different optimal Q relations for crossover and desired frequency output.
Also it helps to know what speakers are you going to use with the subs for satellites, plus the room/studio type and dimensions (some people come back later saying it's for a car). 😀
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you may have to cross it very low, maybe around 50hz
so you may better choose a woofer with low Fs
don't know the TC sound woofer
I would not choose one with those huge 'car-sub rubber boot surround'
but rather look at a woofer type like SB Acoustic 12"
that said, I have not yet built a sub, only thought about it, but cannot afford that 21"
That is an awesome driver all wright, the best? I don't know. It's dammed close if it isn't. Have you seen the Stereo integrity 24" ? For cheaper money the Sundown x series 18 inch looks tempting as well. I have two Sound Splinter RLP-18,s ( triple slug TC-9 motors ) ported, powered by the Inuke nu 6000. Bass is not a problem for me I can tell you. Crossed over to bookshelf monitors? Really? Beautiful overkill, no doubt. Do you know how loud two big time 18 inch subs get? Way louder than any bookshelf speaker. Not to be a wet blanket.
The speakers I will be putting together are Jeff Bagby's Kairos. I want bass that matches the quality of the Satori drivers, which people have been raving about.
The room is 17 ft. x 13 ft. x 9 ft. (2000 cubic ft.) and it's also open to a medium sized bathroom. I'll be EQ'ing the sub(s) with the DSP on the iNuke + REW.
It will be a subwoofer only, and I want to use the smallest sealed box I can build without compromising output. I don't need it to hit single digit frequencies or output extreme dB levels, as it will only be for music. Plus, I will be running the sub on a single 15amp line (120V) so I will definitely be limiting the power. I think the TC Sounds can take 4-5,000 watts but i'll be limiting it to less than 2,000.
I was planning on crossing it a little higher, at around 80Hz, as the Kairos use relatively small 6.5" woofers. I figure with a driver as capable and high quality as the LMS-U, it'd be worthy for it to cover a larger spectrum of the bass. I'm wondering if a smaller driver is more suitable for my purposes. Perhaps the TC Sounds LMS-R 15" or 12"?
That's one of my main concerns. Is a driver like the LMS-U total overkill for my needs? I have seen that SI 24" and it's an awesome piece of work, but way beyond my needs. Again this isn't for HT so output and sub 10Hz bass isn't a priority.
Ultimately, i'm wondering if I can get away with a lesser driver while still maintaining the same SQ as the LMS 5400. Other drivers i'm considering are the IST UXL-18, Acoustic Elegance TD18H+/15H+, or possibly the Aurasound NS18-992-4A 18" if I can find one on sale. Should I be looking at smaller drivers? I want to stick with 2 enclosures maximum.
The room is 17 ft. x 13 ft. x 9 ft. (2000 cubic ft.) and it's also open to a medium sized bathroom. I'll be EQ'ing the sub(s) with the DSP on the iNuke + REW.
It will be a subwoofer only, and I want to use the smallest sealed box I can build without compromising output. I don't need it to hit single digit frequencies or output extreme dB levels, as it will only be for music. Plus, I will be running the sub on a single 15amp line (120V) so I will definitely be limiting the power. I think the TC Sounds can take 4-5,000 watts but i'll be limiting it to less than 2,000.
you may have to cross it very low, maybe around 50hz
so you may better choose a woofer with low Fs
don't know the TC sound woofer
I would not choose one with those huge 'car-sub rubber boot surround'
but rather look at a woofer type like SB Acoustic 12"
that said, I have not yet built a sub, only thought about it, but cannot afford that 21"
I was planning on crossing it a little higher, at around 80Hz, as the Kairos use relatively small 6.5" woofers. I figure with a driver as capable and high quality as the LMS-U, it'd be worthy for it to cover a larger spectrum of the bass. I'm wondering if a smaller driver is more suitable for my purposes. Perhaps the TC Sounds LMS-R 15" or 12"?
That's one of my main concerns. Is a driver like the LMS-U total overkill for my needs? I have seen that SI 24" and it's an awesome piece of work, but way beyond my needs. Again this isn't for HT so output and sub 10Hz bass isn't a priority.
Ultimately, i'm wondering if I can get away with a lesser driver while still maintaining the same SQ as the LMS 5400. Other drivers i'm considering are the IST UXL-18, Acoustic Elegance TD18H+/15H+, or possibly the Aurasound NS18-992-4A 18" if I can find one on sale. Should I be looking at smaller drivers? I want to stick with 2 enclosures maximum.
Making credible low notes shouldn't require a $1600 driver, even discounted.
Whether cost is any constraint or not, better to have multiple, heterogeneously located subs. By any reasonable use of the word "best," that should be better than any single-sub or the routinely observed neatly symmetrically located twin pair or the vanishingly small benefits of this monstrously perfected driver.
Ben
Whether cost is any constraint or not, better to have multiple, heterogeneously located subs. By any reasonable use of the word "best," that should be better than any single-sub or the routinely observed neatly symmetrically located twin pair or the vanishingly small benefits of this monstrously perfected driver.
Ben
Hi,
The TC Sound are for sure some of the best drivers for very compact subwoofers.
Most astonishing I found these super-high-mass drivers quite musical.
Most drivers of the heavyweight, large-n-thick surround style require dozens of watts before they realize that music knocks at the front door.
Driven hard they perform like all muscles no brain.
Not so the TC Sound.
They offer a very high degree of low level resolution and definition already at lowest power levels, but add enormous slam when required.
You may safely choose a Qt around 0.8 in a CB and equalize electronically.
X-overed just around or below the Fs - and preferrably below the room modes- You´ll be rewarded with exceptional clean and tight bass.
The superlong excursion capabilities of the LMS-U, LMS-R and the Epic series will provide for sufficient dynamic headroom.
But as You want to use a small satellite speaker in a not overly large room the 15" and even more the 18" is absolute overkill.
Such large drivers tend to become sonically superior, meaning that -similar to a bad aligned BR- there seems to be continous output that overpowers anything else.
Quite impressive for 5 minutes, annoying for the rest of the time.
I´d rather choose a pair of 10" or 12" in a push-push arrangement to cancel mechanical impulses.
The smaller drivers are also more cost-efficient, as the LMS-R15 is already at the upper limit of priceworthyness and the LMS-U 18" is very expensive, even if one of these may perfectly replace two LMS-R 15".
The casing needs to be as stiff as possible -I chose concrete globes (75cm dia for 2x15", 60cm dia for 2x12", a pair of 18" would require 90cm dia.), which resulted in very compact cabinets, that are as free from noise and vibration as no other (see my website).
The 15"er globe plays from 16Hz-50Hz, driven by 2x1.500W in a ~20.000cft room and is certainly not undersized.
Just as side-note .... keep the weight of the drivers in mind!
The 17kg of the LMS-R15 already present a serious issue regarding mounting and fixation of the drivers.
The 36kg(!!) of the LMS-Ultra are simply not handable by just one person.
Insure that all mounting bolts are tightened even and equal to keep an airtight seal between basket and cabinet.
jauu
Calvin
The TC Sound are for sure some of the best drivers for very compact subwoofers.
Most astonishing I found these super-high-mass drivers quite musical.
Most drivers of the heavyweight, large-n-thick surround style require dozens of watts before they realize that music knocks at the front door.
Driven hard they perform like all muscles no brain.
Not so the TC Sound.
They offer a very high degree of low level resolution and definition already at lowest power levels, but add enormous slam when required.
You may safely choose a Qt around 0.8 in a CB and equalize electronically.
X-overed just around or below the Fs - and preferrably below the room modes- You´ll be rewarded with exceptional clean and tight bass.
The superlong excursion capabilities of the LMS-U, LMS-R and the Epic series will provide for sufficient dynamic headroom.
But as You want to use a small satellite speaker in a not overly large room the 15" and even more the 18" is absolute overkill.
Such large drivers tend to become sonically superior, meaning that -similar to a bad aligned BR- there seems to be continous output that overpowers anything else.
Quite impressive for 5 minutes, annoying for the rest of the time.
I´d rather choose a pair of 10" or 12" in a push-push arrangement to cancel mechanical impulses.
The smaller drivers are also more cost-efficient, as the LMS-R15 is already at the upper limit of priceworthyness and the LMS-U 18" is very expensive, even if one of these may perfectly replace two LMS-R 15".
The casing needs to be as stiff as possible -I chose concrete globes (75cm dia for 2x15", 60cm dia for 2x12", a pair of 18" would require 90cm dia.), which resulted in very compact cabinets, that are as free from noise and vibration as no other (see my website).
The 15"er globe plays from 16Hz-50Hz, driven by 2x1.500W in a ~20.000cft room and is certainly not undersized.
Just as side-note .... keep the weight of the drivers in mind!
The 17kg of the LMS-R15 already present a serious issue regarding mounting and fixation of the drivers.
The 36kg(!!) of the LMS-Ultra are simply not handable by just one person.
Insure that all mounting bolts are tightened even and equal to keep an airtight seal between basket and cabinet.
jauu
Calvin
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm now heavily considering 2 LMS-R 15"s in separate enclosures. I've read that 2 of them are essentially equal to a single LMS-U, with the added benefit of being able to optimally place them individually within the room. I'm thinking I might as well go for the 15" over the 12" as it's only a $70 difference between the 2 drivers.
My only concern with the LMS-R is that i've read they require a good amount of equalizing to sound right. Also, sensitivity is a little low and there have been a few accounts of people saying the mid-bass is lacking, around 50Hz and above. Kind of reluctant because that's where the meat of the bass is for a lot of music.
All,
You are very right in your assumptions.
I would also go to the 15" (2x). Excellent idea.
I would check probably for a good enclosure volume for the LMS-R 15" (not to small requiring a lot of EQ), and from there I would look at other alternatives like mentioned AE or others with good summation for satellites and/or Schroeder frequency - between 100Hz to 200Hz in most home listening rooms.
You are very right in your assumptions.
I would also go to the 15" (2x). Excellent idea.
I would check probably for a good enclosure volume for the LMS-R 15" (not to small requiring a lot of EQ), and from there I would look at other alternatives like mentioned AE or others with good summation for satellites and/or Schroeder frequency - between 100Hz to 200Hz in most home listening rooms.
Hi guys,
Exerpt from:
Kairos
High-End Monitor Loudspeaker
By Jeff Bagby:
"...I also have an active system that I listen to these in. It consists of a pair of sealed subwoofers with TC Sounds 12” drivers and separate 500 Watt amps for each, and a 4th order highpass active filter for the 200 Watt Carver amp driving the monitors. I use a 50 Hz high pass for the Kairos with their ports plugged and adjust each of the subwoofer crossovers for frequency, gain, and phase until I get a flat summation
between them and the Kairos. (I use a similar method with other small monitors as well). With the deep bass filtered and the subs dialed-in the Kairos and the dual subwoofers present my room with a powerful and honest musical presentation from 18 Hz to above 20 kHz, that seems to be nearly state of the art for the electronics and room they are being played in..."
Maybe the PE 293-650 TC Sounds Epic 12"? I have no doubt, that this driver would make for a great subwoofer(or two) for your system. And if you want more: use three as described by Earl Geddes, and you're still money ahead.
Regards,
Exerpt from:
Kairos
High-End Monitor Loudspeaker
By Jeff Bagby:
"...I also have an active system that I listen to these in. It consists of a pair of sealed subwoofers with TC Sounds 12” drivers and separate 500 Watt amps for each, and a 4th order highpass active filter for the 200 Watt Carver amp driving the monitors. I use a 50 Hz high pass for the Kairos with their ports plugged and adjust each of the subwoofer crossovers for frequency, gain, and phase until I get a flat summation
between them and the Kairos. (I use a similar method with other small monitors as well). With the deep bass filtered and the subs dialed-in the Kairos and the dual subwoofers present my room with a powerful and honest musical presentation from 18 Hz to above 20 kHz, that seems to be nearly state of the art for the electronics and room they are being played in..."
Maybe the PE 293-650 TC Sounds Epic 12"? I have no doubt, that this driver would make for a great subwoofer(or two) for your system. And if you want more: use three as described by Earl Geddes, and you're still money ahead.
Regards,
Hi,
I don't think, two LMS-R 15" woud be an excellent idea in Your case, not even a good one, but rather a only expensive one, it'd be though You fancy Disco or HT. 😉
When I suggested 10" or 12" drivers I had the TCsound Epic in mind.
Both would be very well suited for this application in pairs or multiples and cost effective.
When choosing the alignment I suggested the required closed air volume even for pushpush pairs remains very small.
3-4 10" or a pair of 12" should be fine but if You wish for more just add more subs as mentioned before.
jauu
Calvin
I don't think, two LMS-R 15" woud be an excellent idea in Your case, not even a good one, but rather a only expensive one, it'd be though You fancy Disco or HT. 😉
When I suggested 10" or 12" drivers I had the TCsound Epic in mind.
Both would be very well suited for this application in pairs or multiples and cost effective.
When choosing the alignment I suggested the required closed air volume even for pushpush pairs remains very small.
3-4 10" or a pair of 12" should be fine but if You wish for more just add more subs as mentioned before.
jauu
Calvin
Calvin,
I got you. Was just one of the alternatives that was mentioned.
Also I was thinking (post#11) about the space available (net/volume) and was going from there. Many heads thinking make me think less...
I got you. Was just one of the alternatives that was mentioned.
Also I was thinking (post#11) about the space available (net/volume) and was going from there. Many heads thinking make me think less...
By push/push do you mean something such as a dual-opposed alignment?
I want to keep it to 2 enclosures maximum, with the boxes not exceeding 4-5 cubic feet each. Would a pair of TC Sounds Epic 12's, dual-opposed model well in an enclosure this small?
I was originally planning on going for dual 18" or 15" drivers in separate sealed boxes as I always figured bigger drivers were better (more displacement) and I can keep each box at ~4 cubic ft for the drivers i'm looking at. I was also considering a pair of Acoustic Elegance TD18H+’s as i’ve read they are nice high sensitivity drivers with good mid/upper bass, which should translate to good reproduction of music.
It seems like many are suggesting going towards smaller drivers...why is that? I don’t mind smaller drivers if I can maintain the same performance and quality of bass while minimizing the # of boxes (no more than 2) and enclosure size.
Excuse all the questions, this will be my first time building a subwoofer and I want the best I can find within my budget and space/size constraints. I’m coming from a pair of SubMersive HP’s (dual opposed 15”s powered by 2400W amps) in an HT setup but I also think they work quite well for music.
Hi,
push push= magnets or diaphragms facing each other, electrical connection in-phase.
So both diaphragms either push outwards or move inwards in synchronicity.
See the sub-globe on my web.
The 60cm diameter globe with two 12"ers calculates to ~110L or 4cft of Brutto-volume and ~60-70L or 2.2-2.4cft of netto-volume.
The datasheet of the EPIC12 reads:
Epic 12
Qts 0.39 Total Q
Qes 0.415 Electrical Q
Qms 7.8 Mechanical Q
Fs 24 Hertz, Free Air Resonance
Res 3.66 Ohms, DC resistance
Ls 3.2 H, series inductance
Lp 2.9 H, lossy series inductance
Rp 4.2 Ohms, loss across Lp
Dia 250 m meters, effective
Vas 91 liters, air volume equivalent
mms 163 grams, effective mass
cms 269 um/N, compliance
bl 14.8 T*m, motor strength
SplSens 86.6 dBSPL max @1W absorbed
Geometric Stroke 18.1 Millimeters, (voice coil - gap) / 2
70% BL 22.9 Millimeters, BL is 0.7 original value (one way)
Xmech 32.7 Mechanical displacement limit (one way)
Long Term Power 500 Watts
Program Power 2000 Watts, short term peak power limit
Assuming 30L of CB-Netto-volume per driver, this would result in a Qtb of 0.83 and a Fb of 48Hz.
Stuffing the volume will reduce those figures slightly
Most of the working range finds itself below Fb, hence the high Q doesn´t matter at all.
A theoretical eq of 12dB/oct would linearize the sub under freefield conditions down to 20Hz.
In praxis there´s some room gain, so that the real eq required is considerably lower than those 12dB (in theory it´d be 0dB).
As You only need to eq for one octave, power and excursion requirements will stay well within the driver´s capabilities.
If xovered around 50-80Hz max. the slight amplitude peak around the Fb will vanish also.
jauu
Calvin
push push= magnets or diaphragms facing each other, electrical connection in-phase.
So both diaphragms either push outwards or move inwards in synchronicity.
See the sub-globe on my web.
The 60cm diameter globe with two 12"ers calculates to ~110L or 4cft of Brutto-volume and ~60-70L or 2.2-2.4cft of netto-volume.
The datasheet of the EPIC12 reads:
Epic 12
Qts 0.39 Total Q
Qes 0.415 Electrical Q
Qms 7.8 Mechanical Q
Fs 24 Hertz, Free Air Resonance
Res 3.66 Ohms, DC resistance
Ls 3.2 H, series inductance
Lp 2.9 H, lossy series inductance
Rp 4.2 Ohms, loss across Lp
Dia 250 m meters, effective
Vas 91 liters, air volume equivalent
mms 163 grams, effective mass
cms 269 um/N, compliance
bl 14.8 T*m, motor strength
SplSens 86.6 dBSPL max @1W absorbed
Geometric Stroke 18.1 Millimeters, (voice coil - gap) / 2
70% BL 22.9 Millimeters, BL is 0.7 original value (one way)
Xmech 32.7 Mechanical displacement limit (one way)
Long Term Power 500 Watts
Program Power 2000 Watts, short term peak power limit
Assuming 30L of CB-Netto-volume per driver, this would result in a Qtb of 0.83 and a Fb of 48Hz.
Stuffing the volume will reduce those figures slightly
Most of the working range finds itself below Fb, hence the high Q doesn´t matter at all.
A theoretical eq of 12dB/oct would linearize the sub under freefield conditions down to 20Hz.
In praxis there´s some room gain, so that the real eq required is considerably lower than those 12dB (in theory it´d be 0dB).
As You only need to eq for one octave, power and excursion requirements will stay well within the driver´s capabilities.
If xovered around 50-80Hz max. the slight amplitude peak around the Fb will vanish also.
jauu
Calvin
It was already linked, but you might check out my strikingly similar thread in the multiway forum.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/253797-adding-bass-module-satori-monitor.html#post3874685
I'm still on the fence. Jeff Bagby's suggestion is certainly well-informed. I already have a sub - a singular 12" Dayton Titanic, 250w. In my small/medium living room, I have more than enough SPL. But I'm looking for something with EQ and distributed through the room, so less boomy, more musical, and quick. I'm tempted to build to small, sealed, 10" EQ'd boxes. I know this will give me plenty of extension. But I have been intrigued by the open baffle, dipole bass concept.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/253797-adding-bass-module-satori-monitor.html#post3874685
I'm still on the fence. Jeff Bagby's suggestion is certainly well-informed. I already have a sub - a singular 12" Dayton Titanic, 250w. In my small/medium living room, I have more than enough SPL. But I'm looking for something with EQ and distributed through the room, so less boomy, more musical, and quick. I'm tempted to build to small, sealed, 10" EQ'd boxes. I know this will give me plenty of extension. But I have been intrigued by the open baffle, dipole bass concept.
It shouldn't be a problem when you are planning to cross <100Hz in the iNuke DSP (?). Any way it has Voice Coil Inductance (Le) 4.7 mH vs. 2.24 mH for Epic 12".
(second) Yes, and RMS power. (TC Sounds LMS-R 12" DVC Subwoofer) Needs about >6000 W* (simulation for a reflex enclosure) what's crazy-stupid-high, when spec Power Handling (RMS) is 1000 Watts. So, it doesn't work for the side of (spec) 84.5 dB 1W/1m expected and SPL:
Power (RMS): Pmin 6,740.2 W@4.9 Ohms@21.4 Hz (@excursion*)
"Real sensitivity" of driver in 2Pi/4Pi space: 84.4 dB/W/m, 80.4 dB/W/m.
It's a driver to work in a half size enclosure (38L vs. 73L net, car audio anyone?) and to take a lot of equalization when we compare it to others ie., TC SOUND EPIC 12 DVC.
Let's simulate the TC SOUND LMS-R12 vs. TC SOUND EPIC 12 DVC in sealed enclosures now to see some interesting results:
Sealed enclosure 38L:
TC SOUND LMS-R12, VB = 38.0 L, QTC = 0.630, 87.4 dB/2.83V/m
Power @excursion*: 1,160.3 W/4 Ohms, F3: 51 Hz, 30Hz@-9.5dB
Sealed enclosure 73L:
TC SOUND EPIC 12 DVC, VB = 73.0 L, QTC = 0.613, 89.7 dB/2.83V/m
Power @excursion*: 240.6 W/4 Ohms, F3: 47.5 Hz, 30Hz@-8dB
This also reveals that the last driver Epic 12 is engineered to work in reflex or sealed (or other) environments and the LMS-R12 in sealed only because of max admissible power to the coils, this having the power only in the equation. Also having in mind that compression and thermal capacity (in sealed or small enclosures) at max. levels, for PA use are another set of problems. 😎
*) power needed or expected @spec Xmax
This might also interest you:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/238592-seas-l26-roy-alternative-3-way.html
The output and stats of the L26 in a relatively small package is pretty impressive. If cost were no object, I would go for two sealed boxes, an L26 in each, with a big behringer inuke amp.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/238592-seas-l26-roy-alternative-3-way.html
The output and stats of the L26 in a relatively small package is pretty impressive. If cost were no object, I would go for two sealed boxes, an L26 in each, with a big behringer inuke amp.
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