There is a high-end constructor in my country called Willy Pastrana or better know as Willy "Patraña" (he modify a few things in edifier speakers and sell it three times the original price for example 😀)
But one thing that catches my attention, he develop a paint for cones called "ceramioxide" (titanium oxide and some epoxy paint), according to him the paint stiffens the cone and improve the response in all type of speakers...
I think it maybe works in woofers ... but in a tweeter the minimum weight applied to the cone will change much the resonance frequency and reduce the frequency response
Willy Pastrana Audio Engineering
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But one thing that catches my attention, he develop a paint for cones called "ceramioxide" (titanium oxide and some epoxy paint), according to him the paint stiffens the cone and improve the response in all type of speakers...
I think it maybe works in woofers ... but in a tweeter the minimum weight applied to the cone will change much the resonance frequency and reduce the frequency response
Willy Pastrana Audio Engineering
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Being that tweeter diaphragms have virtually no mass...adding mass will only serve to, rather screw things up....Same story everywhere, lots of talk about "how great it sounds", but no documentation, no measurements as to why it sounds the way it does.
I guess it is just a variation on the Polka Dots that are all the rage in the States.
___________________________________________________Rick...........
I guess it is just a variation on the Polka Dots that are all the rage in the States.
___________________________________________________Rick...........
Met the designer for Totem, while he was at a store talking with sales reps about the Mani-2. They were talking about how to sell the coloured dots on his cabinets.
Thinking on a uber high end design the different wood veneer types may have a different resonant impact on the cabinets sound, I asked if this were so.
He gave me dead serious answer-" Of course! Colour is trans-dimensional!"
I'm too dumb to gronk that.
Or the dots.
There are dots, and then there are dots. A few folks understand where to add asymmetric mass to change the cone breakups, so they think. They are also doping the cones which also changes , well just about everything. In ONE case, Planet 10, the results are positive making a horrid "full range" into a not quite horrid, still not full range.
I have used various cone doping on cheap woofers many times. Add mass, add stiffness, raise breakup points, sometimes dampen the breakup. If that is the goal, it works. I find it is far better to just BUY a better driver in the first place.
The Totem guy was claiming his Element woofer requires no crossover and has no breakup. It was very heavily doped so looked quite high mass but he claimed it could reach the tweeters at 3K first order. That would be a nice trick, but I have a very hard time believing it. At more than the price of a car and in a room of not very good acoustics, I was not inclined to listen to them. He also said the sharp edges don't cause THEM any diffraction. What happened? They do make some very nice speakers. Did someone drink the wrong cool-aid?
I have used various cone doping on cheap woofers many times. Add mass, add stiffness, raise breakup points, sometimes dampen the breakup. If that is the goal, it works. I find it is far better to just BUY a better driver in the first place.
The Totem guy was claiming his Element woofer requires no crossover and has no breakup. It was very heavily doped so looked quite high mass but he claimed it could reach the tweeters at 3K first order. That would be a nice trick, but I have a very hard time believing it. At more than the price of a car and in a room of not very good acoustics, I was not inclined to listen to them. He also said the sharp edges don't cause THEM any diffraction. What happened? They do make some very nice speakers. Did someone drink the wrong cool-aid?
People who paint anything on speaker cones are correct in that it will alter the sound for better or worse.
At least it does something real as opposed to other tweaks that I think do absolutely nothing to the sound but have a powerful effect on the minds of certain people.
MITsounds' designer who said, " Of course! Colour is trans-dimensional!" Reminds me of some tests in which "the sound" of speakers as reported by the participants changed when the colour only of the cabinets was changed. A lot of folk just don't want to believe that our perceptions of sound are so influenced by things and ideas that have no physical effect on the actual sound but a huge affect on our perception of sound.
At least it does something real as opposed to other tweaks that I think do absolutely nothing to the sound but have a powerful effect on the minds of certain people.
MITsounds' designer who said, " Of course! Colour is trans-dimensional!" Reminds me of some tests in which "the sound" of speakers as reported by the participants changed when the colour only of the cabinets was changed. A lot of folk just don't want to believe that our perceptions of sound are so influenced by things and ideas that have no physical effect on the actual sound but a huge affect on our perception of sound.
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Good idea, I'll look at gas springs for helpers. No room for simple counterweights.
Got the forced parallel cables all mocked up. I came up with several fall-back ideas including a cheap electric hoist in the attic. I changed how I am going to pull the cable so I can use a single spool and it should be within the max torque.
I figured out I would need a 3 HP compressor to run an air cylinder if I wanted to lift the screen before a movie was over. I liked the idea for controlling decent in a fail safe mode though. I may put in a cylinder just for that function. A 60 inch TV would make a pretty big mess if it dropped 4 feet. I am also thinking about some kind of clamp/break if the cable tension goes slack.
We should not be so hard on bybee snake people. If not for them honesty would be undervalued.
Aha!
Maybe now I understand where Vince B. Was coming from.
Because the dots being discussed were not on the drivers: they were on the cabinets!
Furthermore, in response to my query as to them performing a similar function to the M&K S1C foam around tweeter method, he told me it was the colour of the dots that needed matching to each speaker's design, not their sound absorbing qualities.
So at some level of a person's consciousness , those coloured dots determine how we like that speaker?
Silly humans!
Maybe now I understand where Vince B. Was coming from.
Because the dots being discussed were not on the drivers: they were on the cabinets!
Furthermore, in response to my query as to them performing a similar function to the M&K S1C foam around tweeter method, he told me it was the colour of the dots that needed matching to each speaker's design, not their sound absorbing qualities.
So at some level of a person's consciousness , those coloured dots determine how we like that speaker?
Silly humans!
I would be surprised if the clour of a speaker cabinet affected the sound, apart from the differing pigments affecting the resonant properties of the wood. Such effects although real should be in-audible.
So there could be two types of snake oil, one that does nothing to the sound whatsoever and another that does something to the sound but it is actually in-audible due to its magnitude.
So there could be two types of snake oil, one that does nothing to the sound whatsoever and another that does something to the sound but it is actually in-audible due to its magnitude.
Really.... according to this man these stickers that put in the cabinet have some psychological effect.
Willy "Patraña" is a novice compared to that dude 😀
Willy "Patraña" is a novice compared to that dude 😀
The big snag with the latter is that some people take it as evidence that they can hear inaudible changes. It is hard to argue against this, however sure we may be that they cannot hear the tiny change. Demonstrating that they don't hear big changes and do 'hear' non-changes does not seem to cut any ice with such people.fredex said:
I find the first statement most troubling from a logic stand point . How can it be inaudible if it is truly heard. Then again was it heard ? On the other side we have those who deny that after a cost point what the passive parts are made of is snake oil . Example where a cap is polyprop the metal does not mater where it is tin, aluminum copper, gold or unabtanium it no different just cost . Thus both are wrong . So the truth lies some where else.
There is a third version: Snake oil which produces audible yet negative changes but because these changes are easily audible they are being hailed as 'improvements'.
To wit: The Wavac amp 'review' I linked to earlier.
A set of $350k tube mono blocks with a FR that makes bad speakers look good and that produces gobs of distortion at normal listening levels.
Years ago I also stumbled across some speaker cables which cost $kkk. These had a little black box at one end and were hailed as the greatest, best sounding cables at the time. All well and good until one owner damaged the box only to find out that it contained an inductor.
No wonder that the cable 'smoothed' out the treble as per the reviews but it is hardly Hi-Fi by any stretch of the imagination.
To wit: The Wavac amp 'review' I linked to earlier.
A set of $350k tube mono blocks with a FR that makes bad speakers look good and that produces gobs of distortion at normal listening levels.
Years ago I also stumbled across some speaker cables which cost $kkk. These had a little black box at one end and were hailed as the greatest, best sounding cables at the time. All well and good until one owner damaged the box only to find out that it contained an inductor.
No wonder that the cable 'smoothed' out the treble as per the reviews but it is hardly Hi-Fi by any stretch of the imagination.
I think the truth is reasonably well-known, yet still frequently denied. The basic issues (e.g. frequency response, non-linear distortion) are still the same basic issues as they have been for over half a century. Some types of audio degradation are more audible than others. Some types of audio degradation may be preferred by some people; most of them deny this, but some are willing to admit it. Having got the basics right (sadly, no longer assured) then there may be further improvement to be had but finding good correlation between psychoacoustic tests and electrical tests is difficult - partly because those with real or imagined 'golden ears' don't like being tested.
Distortion spectrum is the biggie ime/imo.
2nds and 3rds we know about.
A bit of 4ths is sort of ok..ish.
5ths are just plain nasty.
6ths, 7ths etc are no good either, but not quite so bad, sort of.
Any particular harmonic higher in level than others draws undue attention/causes fatigue.
Levels of harmonics tapering off quickly with order of harmonics helps.
Distortion spectrum describes sound quite well.
Distortion spectrum changing with signal level is also fatiguing.
IMD is another big spoiler.
Dan.
2nds and 3rds we know about.
A bit of 4ths is sort of ok..ish.
5ths are just plain nasty.
6ths, 7ths etc are no good either, but not quite so bad, sort of.
Any particular harmonic higher in level than others draws undue attention/causes fatigue.
Levels of harmonics tapering off quickly with order of harmonics helps.
Distortion spectrum describes sound quite well.
Distortion spectrum changing with signal level is also fatiguing.
IMD is another big spoiler.
Dan.
Distortion is (almost always) strongly level-dependent - the algebra/trigonometry of distortion insists on this!Max Headroom said:
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