rhythmsandy,
hard to tell just by looking at them or the specs. It depends very
much on speaker builders voicing skills.
Seas is bassmidrange, SS just a mid with very high Qts = 1,7
which is a sign of weak magnet. This doesn't show on FR
graph SS provided but they managed to hide it. Earlier the same
driver used to be sold under Vifa brand. $ 95 US for a SS mid
dome is a ripoff, IMO. This does not mean it can't be put to a
good use and perform well.
If I lived in US, I would have bought something like this:
The Madisound Speaker Store
For clean and unobtrusive mids with little to worry about XO
electronics, this would be the way.
hard to tell just by looking at them or the specs. It depends very
much on speaker builders voicing skills.
Seas is bassmidrange, SS just a mid with very high Qts = 1,7
which is a sign of weak magnet. This doesn't show on FR
graph SS provided but they managed to hide it. Earlier the same
driver used to be sold under Vifa brand. $ 95 US for a SS mid
dome is a ripoff, IMO. This does not mean it can't be put to a
good use and perform well.
If I lived in US, I would have bought something like this:
The Madisound Speaker Store
For clean and unobtrusive mids with little to worry about XO
electronics, this would be the way.
i have that vifa midbass driver used it for 4 years almost and found very sweet vocals but not very open and natural.. I am looking for something pretty open and natural and in general does a dome midrange like 3 inch does gives better clarity than that 6 inch midbass? from same scanspeak or any seas?
You were not satisfied with that PP cone driver because
something went wrong with the project as a whole. This
is not the first time I hear reports like that. It is of immense
importance to get the SPL at XO right and use the right
drivers.
I have heard many times people working with expensive
speakers, not knowing what they were supposed to do
with them and in the end the dissapointment was a natural
outcome. I have witnessed also the opposite of mentioned
case too.
something went wrong with the project as a whole. This
is not the first time I hear reports like that. It is of immense
importance to get the SPL at XO right and use the right
drivers.
I have heard many times people working with expensive
speakers, not knowing what they were supposed to do
with them and in the end the dissapointment was a natural
outcome. I have witnessed also the opposite of mentioned
case too.
I'll second Lojzek's comments - crossover design is at least as important as the drivers themselves, especially if the drivers don't behave well past the crossover frequency. A half dB or a few degrees of phase misalignment can make the difference between "natural and open" and "dark and congested".
In answer to your question about mids having low excursion it is because a true mid (as opposed to a midbass) does not need a lot of excursion. That's why tweeters usually get away with .5 mm Xmax. The up side of designing to low excursion is you can go underhung and keep the coil in the linear part of the gap and reduce distortion. More to it than that, but it's easier to go low distortion with an underhung motor than the overhung often required for high excursion designs. Shorter gap means higher flux density for the same magnet size, increasing efficiency.
In answer to your question about mids having low excursion it is because a true mid (as opposed to a midbass) does not need a lot of excursion. That's why tweeters usually get away with .5 mm Xmax. The up side of designing to low excursion is you can go underhung and keep the coil in the linear part of the gap and reduce distortion. More to it than that, but it's easier to go low distortion with an underhung motor than the overhung often required for high excursion designs. Shorter gap means higher flux density for the same magnet size, increasing efficiency.
Kinda hard to say comparing a 3" dome to a 6.5" midbass. Apples and oranges so to speak.
Good low distortion midrange...
The Madisound Speaker Store
The Madisound Speaker Store
Good low distortion midrange...
The Madisound Speaker Store
The Madisound Speaker Store
I don't agree with the statements about the crossover being more important than the drivers, especially for well behaved drivers.
If you use well behaved drivers the crossover is easy and forgiving.
90% of the character of a speaker will come from the drivers provided the crossover has reasonable phase tracking.
This is all my opinion of course and comes from many years of fooling around with many drivers using DSP and A/B switching, listening to the differences and comparing to proven designs by people who know what they are doing.
The room will introduce far more distortion than an imperfect crossover.
If you use well behaved drivers the crossover is easy and forgiving.
90% of the character of a speaker will come from the drivers provided the crossover has reasonable phase tracking.
This is all my opinion of course and comes from many years of fooling around with many drivers using DSP and A/B switching, listening to the differences and comparing to proven designs by people who know what they are doing.
The room will introduce far more distortion than an imperfect crossover.
Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. As I said there are far worse distortions caused by room reflections, standing waves etc. Maybe in an anechoic chamber such things would become more obvious but in a typical room?
Hi Frangus. I should have said poor phase alignment.
Unfortunately I haven't done a lot of proper AB comparisons. I have been playing with a DSP based crossover that allows tweaking on the fly. As much as I try to go back to a particular reference setting, I frequently (usually) go in a direction until it starts to go worse and then tweak something else. In general it seems like good phase alignment and paying attention to the diffraction peak around 1Khz that the "usual" 9" baffle tends to create a realistic speaker. Power response also plays into it. I tend towards the low tweeter crossover school, but plan to try waveguides soon.
Guess it depends on how you define "well behaved drivers". To me it's pistonic behavior and low distortion. Lots of metal cone drivers have nasty out of band breakups that if not handled well in the crossover make a real mess of the sound. When properly filtered, to my ear these type of drivers sound more open and realistic than paper in my relatively limited experience.
If you define well behaved as having small breakup modes, then paper seems to be the preference. Paper based drivers are usually easier to cross over because of their usually gentle breakup modes. I haven't heard the latest paper drivers, since with a limited budget I've stuck with a few models I like.
Unfortunately I haven't done a lot of proper AB comparisons. I have been playing with a DSP based crossover that allows tweaking on the fly. As much as I try to go back to a particular reference setting, I frequently (usually) go in a direction until it starts to go worse and then tweak something else. In general it seems like good phase alignment and paying attention to the diffraction peak around 1Khz that the "usual" 9" baffle tends to create a realistic speaker. Power response also plays into it. I tend towards the low tweeter crossover school, but plan to try waveguides soon.
Guess it depends on how you define "well behaved drivers". To me it's pistonic behavior and low distortion. Lots of metal cone drivers have nasty out of band breakups that if not handled well in the crossover make a real mess of the sound. When properly filtered, to my ear these type of drivers sound more open and realistic than paper in my relatively limited experience.
If you define well behaved as having small breakup modes, then paper seems to be the preference. Paper based drivers are usually easier to cross over because of their usually gentle breakup modes. I haven't heard the latest paper drivers, since with a limited budget I've stuck with a few models I like.
According to Linn Olson (very experienced audio engineer), domes, especially the larger ones, have "coil tilt" problems which increase I.M distortions. I haven't personally ever seen a 3 inch dome that had a good enough frequency response either. The other driver you mentioned is about 6 inches diameter, so will become pretty directional by the time it gets up around 1kHZ. Having an abrupt dispersion change happen (due to a crossover point) right up where the ear is most sensitive (1kHZ - 6kHZ), is never a good idea. The "room response" is likely to suffer.
I was thrilled to see that someone else had recommended my favorite midrange driver, the Vifa TC9FD18-08. You can always tell when someone is good at speaker building by how much they pay for their drivers. Those who aren't well educated always try to force their speakers to be good by throwing lots of money at them (Seas, Scan Speak, etc.). The expensive drivers are usually very good, but so are some of the very cheap ones if you know how to read specs and design accordingly.
From 300HZ to 8kHZ, these drivers ($13 each) are spectacular. Well vented spiders and pole piece, rubber surround that doesn't stick out so far as to cause significant cavity effect (like the Dayton 3 inchers), shorted turn on end of pole piece for flatter impedance over frequency and extended highs, small size integrates better with tweeters at the crossover frequency (less change of dispersion).
I'm using these in one system and the glass fiber cone version in another (TG such and such ($22 each) from Peerless - which merged with Vifa years ago, and is now owned by someone else - Tympani I think - who also owns Scan Speak if I remember correctly).
Mounting them is a little tricky, best done on panel thickness <1/2 inch so rear energy won't be too restricted. They're also open back drivers so you need to build a subenclosure for them. I made a sub-enclosure out of some 4 inch inner diameter ABS plumbing pipe, about 8 inches deep, filled with acoustically absorbtive materials, and the calibrated mice with pink noise says it's very flat from 300HZ to 8kHZ.
I was thrilled to see that someone else had recommended my favorite midrange driver, the Vifa TC9FD18-08. You can always tell when someone is good at speaker building by how much they pay for their drivers. Those who aren't well educated always try to force their speakers to be good by throwing lots of money at them (Seas, Scan Speak, etc.). The expensive drivers are usually very good, but so are some of the very cheap ones if you know how to read specs and design accordingly.
From 300HZ to 8kHZ, these drivers ($13 each) are spectacular. Well vented spiders and pole piece, rubber surround that doesn't stick out so far as to cause significant cavity effect (like the Dayton 3 inchers), shorted turn on end of pole piece for flatter impedance over frequency and extended highs, small size integrates better with tweeters at the crossover frequency (less change of dispersion).
I'm using these in one system and the glass fiber cone version in another (TG such and such ($22 each) from Peerless - which merged with Vifa years ago, and is now owned by someone else - Tympani I think - who also owns Scan Speak if I remember correctly).
Mounting them is a little tricky, best done on panel thickness <1/2 inch so rear energy won't be too restricted. They're also open back drivers so you need to build a subenclosure for them. I made a sub-enclosure out of some 4 inch inner diameter ABS plumbing pipe, about 8 inches deep, filled with acoustically absorbtive materials, and the calibrated mice with pink noise says it's very flat from 300HZ to 8kHZ.
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I did see, but never owned one. A good example would be
Ruark Excalibur or Solstice. Recognize one of the best
3 inch domes ever made ?
Interesting thinking altough I'm affraid you are wrong.
This would mean all the manufacturers and DIYers
trying to build 2 way good sounding speakers using 6,5"
driver and a tweeter would never succeed in doing so.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting your thoughts.
I think I see your point but it would be fair to say also
that marketing business has done significant part in making
people believe so.
If I am not mistaken that ss P17WJ00 is a continuation of the discontinued vifa P13WH-00-08 which gets much approval for its sound qualities. Was used in many proven designs production and diy. I'm working with one now but have not reached the xo stage. I'm sure I'll be back for help. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/OkaraII/OkaraII.htm
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It just has to be a color that goes well with pink (noise).Hey Bob, what color do those "calibrated mice" come in?
The thing I mentioned about having an abrupt change in dispersion at a 2.5kHZ crossover point becomes an issue when the acoustics of the room come into play. The so called "room response" will color the sound frequency selectively. Where the tweeter comes in, the room will reflect more uppermids than the 5 or 6 inch driver is putting out because of the increased dispersion. Having said all that, I have heard some 2 way bookshelf type speakers that sounded very good. You'd want to be very accurate with the crossover circuit.
The room acoustics is no problem at 2,5 kHz or nowhere
near that if we are talking about normal rooms. If there
is abnormal reverberation, some sort of room treatment
would better it to a normal value. Basic rooms people live
in with some carpets, curtains and typical furniture is good
enough for quality reproduction regarding mentioned
frequencies. It is a simple fact that room has to have
necessary liveliness for the reproduced sound to appear
natural.
FWIW I have listened to many good sounding commercial
speakers having just ordinary 6,5" and a tweeter and have
built more than just a few with the same good results.
yup, P17 6.5" vs P13 5.5"
Here's a 6.5" midbass I'm currently messing with. Tested free air 1m on axis, raw.
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