That's one reason I like the 15" JBL E145 cone in a K145 frame approach. This combination is an underhung alnico assembly capable of a 5mm Xmax with a 55g cone. I tried running one at the E145's JBL rated Xmax of 7.11mm for one hour - bad idea. After 20 minutes, the cloth surround started separating at one of its pleats. Alternatively, a 2226J had no problem running at its Xmax for 1 hr in the same test.
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YOU are defending the claims he makes, over and over, responding to my replies to his claims. Hand claps... if we want to do fantasy discussions, why not do an Taiko recording and see how it sounds through your monsoons at 92dB? Such discussions must necessarily be contextualized by typical use.
I have no problem with your monsoons getting loud enough for you. They would appear to be able to produce your claim within a 2mm assumed Xmax, though more limited below 100hz assuming they're about 10x15 cm diameter.
I'm quite sure your MTMs had some meaningful output below 100hz too, so you deviate from the point under discussion as quickly as you can because the claim that a 100hz highpass makes a reasonable quality sound that is not fatiguing is silly. It might not be "unpleasant" but it's certainly tiresome (as is this ongoing back and forth).
Note that he's made multiple plainly ignorant claims, including the most recent about a 6" handling 1kW peaks (a very brief burst at 300Hz might be tolerated, but it's not a realistic claim for usage), and it is not in the interest of the foum to let unrealistic claims pass unchallenged. He's also claimed in these pages that one can simply compensate for sensitivity and efficiency with more amplifier power. "No speaker is as bad as the typical electronics", to paraphrase him. The electronics significantly outperform speakers in the vast majority of systems, this is well known and understood.
The Sub has a single 6.5" DVC sub with an Xmax of 9mm.
It's not a back and forth, it's a one way street asking you to answer with repeated plee's to do so without rude sarcastic commentary. Most around, are here to learn, not heckled every time they turn around when doing so.
That's all.
You demand everyone to be as precise as possible, yet talk around about this and that in generalizations. State what you have to say. We have no problem with that, but be clear, use reference and show us how it's done. 🙂
It's not a back and forth, it's a one way street asking you to answer with repeated plee's to do so without rude sarcastic commentary. Most around, are here to learn, not heckled every time they turn around when doing so.
That's all.
You demand everyone to be as precise as possible, yet talk around about this and that in generalizations. State what you have to say. We have no problem with that, but be clear, use reference and show us how it's done. 🙂
So manufacturers of TVs and bedside radios always fit 'high end' speakers in their plastic cabinets. It's only when a 1kW Krell or some such is attached that they can actually release their potential. If someone told them, they'd feel so stupid! If they'd known, they could have saved a few cents on each speaker by lowering the power rating from 1kW to, say, 2W.
Where exactly do I demand precision? I DO however demand that if you want to claim to be doing better than the vast majority of the industry, you at least have some notion of what you're talking about. I believe you have a pretty good grip on things, from what I've seen of you here. The dramatic claims in question are absurd, and presented with a style that is condescending. As if every speaker designer is a moron, as they could get wonderful sound from PC speakers if they were just smart enough to re-do the solder joints in their receiver. "Here to learn" means you put your opinions forth, ask questions, and be open to alternative views. You DON'T take absurd positions and defend them doggedly.
"I find overblown bass fatiguing" OK. "It's best to just get rid of <100hz, you don't really need it anyway, it's just rumble" NO.
I don't think we disagree on the issue (maybe about whether the definition of fatigue includes boredom), but you contort yourself with things like the hand clapping example to try to give fas42 a pass for his outlandish claims. I just don't understand why you would have a problem with someone calling out inaccuracy.
The crazy thing is I LOVE tweaking cheap (or fancy) gear. It's a lot of fun to squeeze those extra drops of performance from a amp or speaker or whatever. I have no problem whatsoever with "I took these inexpensive speakers, tweaked them and the amp, and they're sounding great!" I do have a problem with "The problem with the speakers is just the amp, once you give them a more powerful amp, they'll sound just as clean and dynamic as horns, because I can make up for 20dB of efficiency by using 1kW instead of 10W".
Unfortunately, this is something that people need to experience for themselves: when a system is working 'correctly' the subjective impression of the sound completely changes - the easiest way to explain it is to compare a live rendition of acoustic instruments with a reproduction of the same through a normal audio system, level matched. Most hifis start bellowing, and belting you around the head with unpleasantness, it starts to become like a club PA experience ...
This is not what good reproduction is about: the better stuff actually becomes an immersive experience, it completely fills the space you're in, takes it over completely - the sound is no longer LOUD, it's intense - becomes a whole body thing. The ear automatically adjusts for optimum hearing, the measurable SPLs may vary dramatically, but inside your head the sense of the sound doesn't change, whether you're at the far end of the house, or have your ear 2" away from a speaker driver. The first time you hear sound reproduction working like this it's quite a shock, you scratch your head for awhile, until you realise that, finally, that what you've got is a system that is working in a way that suits how the human hearing system has evolved - the sound always 'makes sense', your hearing system is no longer "fighting" what the speaker is producing, it's going with it, accepting the sound as being 'real' ...
I can understand some people not liking this type of 'presentation', because it no longer sounds spectacular, it doesn't shout, "Look at me, look at me!!" - in some ways, perhaps it's too ordinary, sometimes 'reality' is just not fancy enough ...
Here's some real data for those who think they can hear the difference between ported and sealed:
Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012
Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012
None of that is what I take issue with. I agree with your idea that a system shouldn't "jump out" overmuch, though sometimes that "jumping out" really IS that a given system is so much better than what people are familiar with, or because it's music that SHOULD jump out at you. There's some music that's supposed to knock you back a step.
My problem is with claims like:
Cutting out everything below 100 is acceptable because it's all junk below that
One can achieve horn sound with a low efficiency speaker by dramatically increasing amp power- you use a 6" getting 1kW as an example....
The majority of problems in a system come from the amp (and not even from the circuit, but from the build quality), not the speakers
All of which are a bunch of hooey.
I haven't said it's "junk", rather that it's not essential for the vast majority of the musical message to get across - I've already mentioned analysing a very well recorded track with triple drumkits, and the amount of material below 100Hz is not great; drop below 80Hz and it almost completely disappears. Yes, there is ambience there, and it helps to fill out the sound when present, but it's not part of the score; that said, there are obviously pieces where there is clearly very low bass content deliberately there, so the item sounds "wrong" because it depends on that - there are always exceptions.
To make things worse, from your point of view, my HT setup puts most of the below 180Hz stuff through a separately powered subwoofer - and because of all the fiddling I've done a couple of times that unit has stopped working. And I didn't notice! After listening to a few albums, I thought, hmmm, that track doesn't quite sound like it normally does ... hello! - subwoofer's off the air!! ... 😉
Don't need big changes in amp power - rather, the amp that you do have must work correctly. That is, the power it claims to produce must actually be usable! 100W of genuinely clean power, with speakers of conventional sensitivity is enough.
The 1kW speakers is merely to point out that one can get drivers that will handle a transient, that matches what real world sounds do ...
That I can't make go away ... , I've done the experiments too many times ... sorry, that's just how it is ...
I suppose different folks have different tastes, or hearing. I know a lot of audiophiles who simply don't like bass. Lack of bass bothers me, for sure - but I don't like tweeters much, and some folks can't live without them, so who am I to judge?
Rare is the small speaker that does not sound small to me. No matter how good it sounds, how well it measures, small sounds small to me. (I've mentioned some notable exceptions before). And while I wouldn't automatically throw "small" into the fatiguing pile, it's unsatisfying.
Rare is the small speaker that does not sound small to me. No matter how good it sounds, how well it measures, small sounds small to me. (I've mentioned some notable exceptions before). And while I wouldn't automatically throw "small" into the fatiguing pile, it's unsatisfying.
In a discussion often I can see people who do not have the ability to sit in someone else's chair, or to understand that everyone's expectation is different.
A lot of audiophiles don't like bass? I haven't seen any. But if there is compensation for the extra bass (either worse midrange or worse overall integration or not good enough bass quality) then everyone have different preference or priority. May be audiophiles prefer perfection even if it is limited.
Lack of bass always bothers me too. But very often I prefer going without it. And no commercial subwoofers have been good enough for me.
Another issue is size. A good subwoofer should not affect the midbass/midrange. When there is no sub frequency, the removal or addition of a sub shouldn't be audible. In this situation I recognize that for music, especially the music I'm listening to, this extra bass is rarely exist. Too "rare" to justify the big size of it. Problem is I like accoustic guitar instrumental, and without extra bass it doesn't sound as good.
You don't like tweeters? Question is how high your midrange can go. And if you need extra high frequency, how good is the tweeter and how well it is designed (and how good is the amp). I can say for myself that I don't like tweeters. Or I can say that I like tweeters. Guess who can judge?
Yes. But if measured "properly" I believe that big or small is not important anymore. Like I often said, it takes expertise and top quality parts to make small part to sound like big part, given that the room (or listening distance) is adjusted (smaller for smaller part).
When people mention that a small speaker sounds "big" usually there is too much baffle step compensation, a tilted bass response. But IME there is one more important factor, which is how both drivers (woofer & tweeter) should produce the same signal at the same time (in phase) around the critical frequency range, which is often a crossover region.
The "size" of the sound is a function of how well the whole system works; monolith speakers, battleship amplifiers often generate 'small sound', but disguise it by allowing the volume to be easily pumped up - and then they just become tarted up PA systems ... I've heard plenty of these in my time, in retailers' showrooms ...
The "big" sound takes a bit of effort, but then effortlessly fills the space, irrespective of the size of the tranducers. All the elements of 'correct' sound have to be there, and then the DSP inside one's head does the rest ...
The "big" sound takes a bit of effort, but then effortlessly fills the space, irrespective of the size of the tranducers. All the elements of 'correct' sound have to be there, and then the DSP inside one's head does the rest ...
In my active system, I can instantly switch from three way (with 12" woofers), down to two way, using the 4" mids as woofer-mids. In this configuration, it doesn't reproduce much below 100 Hz.
Comparing the two, I know which I prefer! I think you'd have to be some sort of masochist to choose the two way configuration. I certainly would find it fatiguing. When I've got more time, I'll see if I can stand an evening of it and whether I get used to it!
In the meantime, I've just heard the start of Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony over the three way, and it was the the bass content made my heart race faster. It's astounding! The idea that you would want to listen to that piece over two little speakers... it's just daft.
Comparing the two, I know which I prefer! I think you'd have to be some sort of masochist to choose the two way configuration. I certainly would find it fatiguing. When I've got more time, I'll see if I can stand an evening of it and whether I get used to it!
In the meantime, I've just heard the start of Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony over the three way, and it was the the bass content made my heart race faster. It's astounding! The idea that you would want to listen to that piece over two little speakers... it's just daft.
I have 2 or 3 unforgettable experiences creating small speaker that sound big... The woofer is less than 6 inches.
I usually aim a seamless integration between woofer and tweeter, such that you can perceive there is one membrane covering both drivers but exactly at baffle position (it seems the baffle is the membrane/cone). But in a slim forstander (MLTL style) I once could achieve a situation where this membrane is very big and far in front of the speaker. It was my first and only experience. Things like that is unforgettable and I will and have always wanted to reconstruct the speaker.
Second one was only from a bookshelf size speaker. My harddisk is broken (couldn't access my files), my notes is gone, and I mixed up my crossovers prototypes so I cant be sure how I can reconstruct it but sure I will because most of the design parameters are not lost (still have the box, the coils, the drivers, etc). I'm sure I feel like listening to several door-size speakers while it was only a bookshelf.
I tried to increase the listening space by adding big woofer to this but couldn't make it (tried and bought new woofers). Tried horn but I heard the problems I didn't notice without. So my ultimate plan was to duplicate the speaker, to make 4 of it and run them in series/parallel. I already get the 4 tweeters (bought all 15 I could find in the store) but couldn't find the extra 2 woofers so it was abandoned.
The problem is that for a small speaker to sound not so fatiguing when reproducing bass there should be a bass response lift (or even sensitivity sacrifice). And when you want to integrate with subwoofer you don't want this response lift. If your 3-way with subwoofer is a complete design, most of the time you will get fatiguing sound if you remove the subwoofer. It doesn't mean that you cannot do a 3-way with subwoofer that is detachable. It is just difficult.
And symphony orchestra cannot be handled by 4" or even 6" IME.
Ahhh, yes ... the experience! Once achieved, never forgotten - I've often compared this to sampling a truly superb red wine, somewhat accidentally chanced upon, which forever more sets the standard that you aim for. Every experience following, you search for the signs of potential - you recognise the hints of it now and again, but so often it can prove to be frustratingly elusive to truly recreate the right environment, circumstances, to have it consistently happen.
The good news is that it is there, always waiting to be rediscovered, by those with the necessary patience, focus, fussiness and persistence.
BTW, symphonies can be done by the smaller units. My HT kit uses a single 6" driver for subwoofer, and in peak form it did the final movement of Beethoven's 9th at maximum volume, in particular the climax, with satisfying cleanness and impact.
I was referring to a 2-way. Of course 6" or even 4" subwoofer can do it. But again, everyone's standard is different. What is satisfying for you may be not enough for others.
In theory, my system takes that into account by aiming to invert the measured the response of each driver individually, with separate baffle step correction for each driver overlaid on top of that. When I go two way, the deficient bass of the mid is automatically boosted to compensate, within reasonable limits.
If I was listening to girl-and-guitar, maybe the small speaker would be OK.