Some of you may have seen my other thread about building a true 4.5 way active speaker with cost virtually no object.
Before I get back to that I want to test the water and build a competent speaker to check my build skills are good enough,
Basic plan is dual 8 inch woofers (up to 1khz?), mid (4/5 inches) then cheap ribbon/normal dome tweeter.
Driver suggestions are very welcomed.
Will be built out of 18mm mdf, unless better suggestions are offered.
crossover I have no idea how to build...but I'm excited to try!! Think it makes more sense to do this after drivers are finalised.
Thanks for reading.
Before I get back to that I want to test the water and build a competent speaker to check my build skills are good enough,
Basic plan is dual 8 inch woofers (up to 1khz?), mid (4/5 inches) then cheap ribbon/normal dome tweeter.
Driver suggestions are very welcomed.
Will be built out of 18mm mdf, unless better suggestions are offered.
crossover I have no idea how to build...but I'm excited to try!! Think it makes more sense to do this after drivers are finalised.
Thanks for reading.
Your budget is for what? Drivers only? Drivers + crossover components? All material including wood, screws, paint, insulation and so on?
IMHO you'd have a hard time fitting drivers only in your budget: see Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5 for a fully documented 3.5 way design by a reputable designer, using good value drivers (not cheap but not expensive either). And that is using 7" drivers and not 8".
If you only want to try your woodworking (and soldering) skills build a simple 2 way speaker, maybe the Amiga suggested here frequently or some other Paul Carmody's creations: https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy. Even on simple projects I can tell you that a lot of things can go wrong if not planned and executed well.
If you want to design your own your first budget should be for a measurement device (calibrated mic + preamp).
Ralf
IMHO you'd have a hard time fitting drivers only in your budget: see Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5 for a fully documented 3.5 way design by a reputable designer, using good value drivers (not cheap but not expensive either). And that is using 7" drivers and not 8".
If you only want to try your woodworking (and soldering) skills build a simple 2 way speaker, maybe the Amiga suggested here frequently or some other Paul Carmody's creations: https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy. Even on simple projects I can tell you that a lot of things can go wrong if not planned and executed well.
If you want to design your own your first budget should be for a measurement device (calibrated mic + preamp).
Ralf
You may find that re-thinking your design to have a single Bass driver, Xover at around 200Hz onto your Mid and then look for a suitable Treble Drivers.
Many variables, but it is wise to try to keep your vocal range within one Driver.
Again your cost allocations are very important before thinking about what Drivers might be suitable...
18mm MDF is OK for this type of build
Mik
Many variables, but it is wise to try to keep your vocal range within one Driver.
Again your cost allocations are very important before thinking about what Drivers might be suitable...
18mm MDF is OK for this type of build
Mik
Ok let me refine the goal slightly:
I want to build something that equals or exceeds the quality from a b and w 683.
Budget is for drivers+crossover. Can be increased, but want to do it as cheaply as possible to meet the above goals.
So requirements:
3.5 way with dual 8 inch woofers.
floorstanding around 10 inches wide ish
sounds better than b and w 683
target price £250 for drivers+crossover, can be increased up to £500.
cabinet - 18mm mdf? should I go 22/25? Will brace heavily either way. Will be a separate budget
bass requirements, want them to play to roughly 50 hz well. don't want a 100hz bass peak.
haha the scan speak kit looks decent.
I want to build something that equals or exceeds the quality from a b and w 683.
Budget is for drivers+crossover. Can be increased, but want to do it as cheaply as possible to meet the above goals.
So requirements:
3.5 way with dual 8 inch woofers.
floorstanding around 10 inches wide ish
sounds better than b and w 683
target price £250 for drivers+crossover, can be increased up to £500.
cabinet - 18mm mdf? should I go 22/25? Will brace heavily either way. Will be a separate budget
bass requirements, want them to play to roughly 50 hz well. don't want a 100hz bass peak.
haha the scan speak kit looks decent.
why 3.5way?
for that price you would probably have to go 2-way for something decent. something like this:
Waveguide Speaker kits DIY Sound Group
atleast the tweeter and dispertion is better than b&w budget lines. possibly frequency response also. not to mention effeciency.
for that price you would probably have to go 2-way for something decent. something like this:
Waveguide Speaker kits DIY Sound Group
atleast the tweeter and dispertion is better than b&w budget lines. possibly frequency response also. not to mention effeciency.
It seems you didn't understand. So let me put this in another way.
In the low end the diyer is not able to build a speaker that outperforms a comparable price-wise industrial product. The reason is simply that big companies will buy components at half and even less the price we mere mortals usually pay. The gap will shorten or close with marketing and distribution cost thou. But you have to factor also some money for trials if you don't build an already designed speaker.
So your idea to have a budget of 250£ for driver and crossover only for a 3.5 way speaker that should compete with a B&W 683 that costs new much more is foolish. Changing the budget to 500£ helps (but it is the double, not 10-20% more!), but again if you don't build a reputable design you won't succeed: or your speaker will be less that the reference or you will pay more. If you don't mind spending money but learning something in the process go for a your design but invest in advance in measurement equipment.
You can have a look at some Visaton kits here: 3-Way Speakers. The Experience V20 should come close to your requirements (twin 8" drivers but 3 way and not 3.5), also for price. If that outperforms the B&W I don't know.
Ralf
PS. x.5 way designs are not for everyone, since they are full baffle step compensation by design. Having a twin bass driver design doesn't mean it is automatically a x.5 design design. So do you want a 3.5 way design or a 3 way with twin bass drivers?
In the low end the diyer is not able to build a speaker that outperforms a comparable price-wise industrial product. The reason is simply that big companies will buy components at half and even less the price we mere mortals usually pay. The gap will shorten or close with marketing and distribution cost thou. But you have to factor also some money for trials if you don't build an already designed speaker.
So your idea to have a budget of 250£ for driver and crossover only for a 3.5 way speaker that should compete with a B&W 683 that costs new much more is foolish. Changing the budget to 500£ helps (but it is the double, not 10-20% more!), but again if you don't build a reputable design you won't succeed: or your speaker will be less that the reference or you will pay more. If you don't mind spending money but learning something in the process go for a your design but invest in advance in measurement equipment.
You can have a look at some Visaton kits here: 3-Way Speakers. The Experience V20 should come close to your requirements (twin 8" drivers but 3 way and not 3.5), also for price. If that outperforms the B&W I don't know.
Ralf
PS. x.5 way designs are not for everyone, since they are full baffle step compensation by design. Having a twin bass driver design doesn't mean it is automatically a x.5 design design. So do you want a 3.5 way design or a 3 way with twin bass drivers?
.....then would probably be looking at the BMS 5S117 Midrange, Visaton Ribbon HF, and a suitable LF Driver for each Box.
B and C products are also well worth looking at as well.
Bass response down to 40Hz will provide for the full frequency range of a Bass Guitar!
Box design using WinISD for the LF section.
Drive 3 way Active to avoid having to do any Passive Xover design, especially if you intend to use multiple Bass Drivers with an impedance difference between frequency bands.
Mik
B and C products are also well worth looking at as well.
Bass response down to 40Hz will provide for the full frequency range of a Bass Guitar!
Box design using WinISD for the LF section.
Drive 3 way Active to avoid having to do any Passive Xover design, especially if you intend to use multiple Bass Drivers with an impedance difference between frequency bands.
Mik
You must be a business man...
that does not understand about what he is selling.
You have a lot to run, running123. 😀
For those who don't know, the B&W 683 cost £1000/pr (US$1550/pr based on currency conversion).
Floor Standing Speakers Bowers And Wilkins 683 | hifix.co.uk
I found them at BestBuy.com for £750 EACH.
Bowers and Wilkins 612" 3Way Floorstanding Speaker Each 683B - Best Buy
This is a pretty tall order, to duplicate $1500/pr speakers for £250.
I think if you search for existing projects, you should have no problem finding a twin woofer 3-way or 3.5-way. That would probably be the best place to start.
But, if we assume £250 per speaker system, break that down by components -
£50/pr = woofers (2x)
£20/ea = Midrange (assuming one)
£20/ea = tweeter
£50/ea = Crossover (that's probably lean)
£20/ea = misc.
-------------------
£160/set = total
Then times two for two speakers = £320.
$25 bass drivers are good ... decent ... but they are not likely the equal of the £1000/pr B&W.
So, I would advise forgetting about the B&W 683, and simply concentrate on making some decent speakers within your budget range.
Using Europe-Audio as an example, the Dayton Classic 8" bass drivers are US$35 each.
Dayton 4" full range for the mids are US$40.77 each.
The Dayton DC28-F silk dome tweeter is US$28.82 each.
So 4x35 + 2x41 + 2x29 = 140 + 82 + 58 = US$280/set
DC200-8 - Dayton 8 inch Classic Woofer - Europe Audio
RS100S-8 - Dayton 4 inch Reference Shielded Full-Range Driver - Europe Audio
DC28F-8 - Dayton 1.125 inch silk dome tweeter - Europe Audio
Now these are USA brand being sold in Europe.
If we use SEAS which is a European brand and highly regarded, but are going to be more expensive, substantially so -
Seas • Europe Audio
Scan-Speaker are also a European brand, but again, expect to may massively more money -
Scan-Speak • Europe Audio
And so on ...
Steve/bluewizard
Floor Standing Speakers Bowers And Wilkins 683 | hifix.co.uk
I found them at BestBuy.com for £750 EACH.
Bowers and Wilkins 612" 3Way Floorstanding Speaker Each 683B - Best Buy
This is a pretty tall order, to duplicate $1500/pr speakers for £250.
I think if you search for existing projects, you should have no problem finding a twin woofer 3-way or 3.5-way. That would probably be the best place to start.
But, if we assume £250 per speaker system, break that down by components -
£50/pr = woofers (2x)
£20/ea = Midrange (assuming one)
£20/ea = tweeter
£50/ea = Crossover (that's probably lean)
£20/ea = misc.
-------------------
£160/set = total
Then times two for two speakers = £320.
$25 bass drivers are good ... decent ... but they are not likely the equal of the £1000/pr B&W.
So, I would advise forgetting about the B&W 683, and simply concentrate on making some decent speakers within your budget range.
Using Europe-Audio as an example, the Dayton Classic 8" bass drivers are US$35 each.
Dayton 4" full range for the mids are US$40.77 each.
The Dayton DC28-F silk dome tweeter is US$28.82 each.
So 4x35 + 2x41 + 2x29 = 140 + 82 + 58 = US$280/set
DC200-8 - Dayton 8 inch Classic Woofer - Europe Audio
RS100S-8 - Dayton 4 inch Reference Shielded Full-Range Driver - Europe Audio
DC28F-8 - Dayton 1.125 inch silk dome tweeter - Europe Audio
Now these are USA brand being sold in Europe.
If we use SEAS which is a European brand and highly regarded, but are going to be more expensive, substantially so -
Seas • Europe Audio
Scan-Speaker are also a European brand, but again, expect to may massively more money -
Scan-Speak • Europe Audio
And so on ...
Steve/bluewizard
There isn't much personal satisfaction in laying your credit card down and walking away with commercial speakers.
The satisfaction come from struggle, learning, growing, experiencing the building of speakers yourself. They may or may not better than consumer speakers for the money, but YOUR WILL BE a better person for it.
Lots of people want to be successful, but few are willing to take the long hard journey to success. And every successful person has had failures along the way. That's part of the risk. You can't succeed if you don't dare risk failure. DIY speaker builders are on that journey. They aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. They aren't afraid to tax their mind and push their skill set to and beyond the limit.
Assuming you don't screw up terribly, even a bad design is still a fair set of speakers within a reasonable context.
So, if you are going to do this, you have to be more committed to the journey than the destination.
Hey ... I'm just saying ...
Steve/bluewizard
The satisfaction come from struggle, learning, growing, experiencing the building of speakers yourself. They may or may not better than consumer speakers for the money, but YOUR WILL BE a better person for it.
Lots of people want to be successful, but few are willing to take the long hard journey to success. And every successful person has had failures along the way. That's part of the risk. You can't succeed if you don't dare risk failure. DIY speaker builders are on that journey. They aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. They aren't afraid to tax their mind and push their skill set to and beyond the limit.
Assuming you don't screw up terribly, even a bad design is still a fair set of speakers within a reasonable context.
So, if you are going to do this, you have to be more committed to the journey than the destination.
Hey ... I'm just saying ...
Steve/bluewizard
I have build an 18 inch pa sub and a 10 inch hifi sub (peerless xls) (for my dad as a christmas present)
I enjoy building and designing a lot.
I'm not in it to make money at present, it's my dream to eventually open hifi company, but more like in 10 years kinda thing. Right now I am a student and have a guaranteed career in a completely different field, this is just a hobby. Believe me if I as just trying to make money I wouldn't be trying to start an audio company, it just really appeals to me.
To be fair I didn't realise that at the lower end it's cheaper to buy speakers, based on the cheapness of building good quality 18inch reflex cabs which normally cost £600 retail can be built for £250 etc. You learn something every day, certainly here.
Can I have advise on a budget of £500 then, since £250 is unworkable.
I enjoy building and designing a lot.
I'm not in it to make money at present, it's my dream to eventually open hifi company, but more like in 10 years kinda thing. Right now I am a student and have a guaranteed career in a completely different field, this is just a hobby. Believe me if I as just trying to make money I wouldn't be trying to start an audio company, it just really appeals to me.
To be fair I didn't realise that at the lower end it's cheaper to buy speakers, based on the cheapness of building good quality 18inch reflex cabs which normally cost £600 retail can be built for £250 etc. You learn something every day, certainly here.
Can I have advise on a budget of £500 then, since £250 is unworkable.
If you eventually plan to open an Audio/HiFi company, then plan to spend the next 10 yr learning the equivalent of an engineering degree.
There are software programs that can help design and test speakers, but they are a bit beyond the budget of a Student. Though there is also some free software. But the software in meaningless unless you can reasonably interpret the results. It takes a base of knowledge to get meaningful result from the software. There are a couple of current thread recommending a range of software from free to the somewhat expensive. Best check them out.
But even if you have design software, so some extent you need modeling software, so you can, to the extent possible, get a sense of a design before you commit it to wood and drivers.
That said, the best path to start on is to find existing tested proven designs, and simply copy them. You gain skill at building and understanding what makes a speaker work. Typically when you find a thread for a proven design, it goes through the complete process, design philosophy, design concept, driver selection, crossover design and consideration, tweaking the final result, all combined with on going discussion. Even if you don't copy a particular design, reading through the thread and seeing the process is still valuable.
Perhaps others could suggest some good projects that are based on a 3-way or 3.5-way with twin woofers.
Myself, though my experience is somewhat limited, I always start with a concept. There is something about the physical concept that appeals to me. That is I know what I want the final speaker to look like. It might involve more than one cabinet. For example, I have a concept that used trapaziod cabinets, with one cabinet for the big 10" woofer, and a small cabinet on top for the Mid and Highs.
Perhaps the concept is WWMT, or it might be WMTW, or it might be WMTMW, or some other combination. But that is usually where a design starts with a concept and with a set of design goals. (WWMT = Woofer, Woofer, Midrange, Tweeter)
Then set a budget, then work out what drivers will functionally work in the design concept. The drivers must have a reasonable overlap in their frequency ranges so you aren't driving them near their limits.
The rated frequency response of a woofer is rarely to never the functional frequency response. If a bass driver claims response of 30hz to 5khz, then likely the functional range is 30hz to 3khz if you are lucky.
Tweeters may have a rated low end of 1000hz, but to sustain any functional power, they are going to need to be crossed at 1.5khz, 2khz, or 3khz.
Also in a 3-way do you want Low-Bass, Mid-Bass, Tweeter or do you want Woofer, Midrange, Tweeter. These things need to be ironed out before you start picking drivers.
How big can the cabinets be and how does that conflict with how big the cabinets NEED to be? All details that have to be worked out.
Which is why it is better to copy an existing design and follow a few build thread to get an idea of the process. Once you do that, you will have a foundation to build your own.
I think there is a forum at this site dedicated to DIY builds or at least links to favorite projects.
If you build you own, you really need some way to test them to be sure they are doing what they are suppose to be doing. You can get REW (Room EQ Wizard) for free which can test speakers. But you need a decent sound card and a mixer and a reference or measurement grade microphone. The alternate is a USB mixer, minimum 2 channels, a measurement microphone, and a place free of obstructions and reflections to actually do the testing.
As you can see it is a complicated process. So, once again, find an existing design and copy it. Then plan on building a lot of speakers in the next 10 years, so that when it comes time to start an Audio Business, you know what you are doing and what you are talking about.
The problem with designing and building speakers is that, the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know.
Still don't let that discourage you. Even the most experience engineers don't know it all, and each build is a learning process. Knowledge gained is never a bad thing.
Does anyone know of any existing builds or projects that come close to what the Original Poster has described?
Steve/bluewizard
There are software programs that can help design and test speakers, but they are a bit beyond the budget of a Student. Though there is also some free software. But the software in meaningless unless you can reasonably interpret the results. It takes a base of knowledge to get meaningful result from the software. There are a couple of current thread recommending a range of software from free to the somewhat expensive. Best check them out.
But even if you have design software, so some extent you need modeling software, so you can, to the extent possible, get a sense of a design before you commit it to wood and drivers.
That said, the best path to start on is to find existing tested proven designs, and simply copy them. You gain skill at building and understanding what makes a speaker work. Typically when you find a thread for a proven design, it goes through the complete process, design philosophy, design concept, driver selection, crossover design and consideration, tweaking the final result, all combined with on going discussion. Even if you don't copy a particular design, reading through the thread and seeing the process is still valuable.
Perhaps others could suggest some good projects that are based on a 3-way or 3.5-way with twin woofers.
Myself, though my experience is somewhat limited, I always start with a concept. There is something about the physical concept that appeals to me. That is I know what I want the final speaker to look like. It might involve more than one cabinet. For example, I have a concept that used trapaziod cabinets, with one cabinet for the big 10" woofer, and a small cabinet on top for the Mid and Highs.
Perhaps the concept is WWMT, or it might be WMTW, or it might be WMTMW, or some other combination. But that is usually where a design starts with a concept and with a set of design goals. (WWMT = Woofer, Woofer, Midrange, Tweeter)
Then set a budget, then work out what drivers will functionally work in the design concept. The drivers must have a reasonable overlap in their frequency ranges so you aren't driving them near their limits.
The rated frequency response of a woofer is rarely to never the functional frequency response. If a bass driver claims response of 30hz to 5khz, then likely the functional range is 30hz to 3khz if you are lucky.
Tweeters may have a rated low end of 1000hz, but to sustain any functional power, they are going to need to be crossed at 1.5khz, 2khz, or 3khz.
Also in a 3-way do you want Low-Bass, Mid-Bass, Tweeter or do you want Woofer, Midrange, Tweeter. These things need to be ironed out before you start picking drivers.
How big can the cabinets be and how does that conflict with how big the cabinets NEED to be? All details that have to be worked out.
Which is why it is better to copy an existing design and follow a few build thread to get an idea of the process. Once you do that, you will have a foundation to build your own.
I think there is a forum at this site dedicated to DIY builds or at least links to favorite projects.
If you build you own, you really need some way to test them to be sure they are doing what they are suppose to be doing. You can get REW (Room EQ Wizard) for free which can test speakers. But you need a decent sound card and a mixer and a reference or measurement grade microphone. The alternate is a USB mixer, minimum 2 channels, a measurement microphone, and a place free of obstructions and reflections to actually do the testing.
As you can see it is a complicated process. So, once again, find an existing design and copy it. Then plan on building a lot of speakers in the next 10 years, so that when it comes time to start an Audio Business, you know what you are doing and what you are talking about.
The problem with designing and building speakers is that, the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know.
Still don't let that discourage you. Even the most experience engineers don't know it all, and each build is a learning process. Knowledge gained is never a bad thing.
Does anyone know of any existing builds or projects that come close to what the Original Poster has described?
Steve/bluewizard
Last edited:
having a read of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickerson could be a very good start.
Available from various sources on't net
Mik
Available from various sources on't net
Mik
My argument is valid for multi-way speakers and not subwoofers. On subwoofers as you point out a diyer can save money.
If your plan is that build a tested design. I already gave you some ideas on tested designs. You can concentrate on all the building aspects. I also suggested some Visaton kits, because on kits you'll shop only once and realize some savings, and are easily obtained in Europe.
On the other hand, if you insist on designing from scratch a speaker I strongly advise you not to exceed a 2 way. But before, as I already said, invest in measurement devices and in time to learn how to use them. Lots of useful free software exist for designing speakers, forget about online calculator.
Can only second that.
Ralf
It's Vance Dickason - Loudspeaker Design Cookbook: Vance Dickason: 9781882580101: Amazon.com: Books
On top of starting page here we can find a wonderful resource - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...designing-crossovers-without-measurement.html
Some proven, well documented and economical builds to study and start with - from Zaph Krutke, Jim Holz, Roman Bednarek and Paul Carmody
Some general info about designing speakers S Linkwitz and J Kreskowsky
Have fun!
On top of starting page here we can find a wonderful resource - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...designing-crossovers-without-measurement.html
Some proven, well documented and economical builds to study and start with - from Zaph Krutke, Jim Holz, Roman Bednarek and Paul Carmody
Some general info about designing speakers S Linkwitz and J Kreskowsky
Have fun!
I concure with Audiomik/Giralfino, Vance's book is a good start. A UMIK-1/EMM6 is inexpensive enough, REW / ARTA are free and you'll be ahead of the game. Two way design (maybe a 2.5way) would be the way to go, keeping your budget intact and learning some invaluable information in the process
Plus if you get stuck, have ANY questions, we (DIYAudio) are always around to ask 🙂
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Nice additions Juha
Plus if you get stuck, have ANY questions, we (DIYAudio) are always around to ask 🙂
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Nice additions Juha
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