brlmat, I suspect the 'blameless' proponents argue that an amplifier's sole purpose is to accurately, faithfully, reproduce the source signal - only amplified. Colouration of the sound is undesirable and that if you want a 'richer' sound then you should use an equalizer to achieve that.
I agree with that in principle. In practice if my ears aren't trained to recognise this 'blameless' accurate reproduction (and use EQ to adjust the sound to taste), and I'm comparing amplifier A vs. B, then I'm going to choose the one I prefer the sound of even if its the one with measurable distortion and colouration.
I agree with that in principle. In practice if my ears aren't trained to recognise this 'blameless' accurate reproduction (and use EQ to adjust the sound to taste), and I'm comparing amplifier A vs. B, then I'm going to choose the one I prefer the sound of even if its the one with measurable distortion and colouration.
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I'm ok with the fact that this amp is grey, no coloration, because i can achieve that using an eq. Anyway, in my opinion, a colored amp should be chosen in relation to the speakers it's going to drive, otherwise it would sound odd.
What i am more interested in is if this blameless amp is able to be detailed. Now, what i don't know is what makes an amp be detailed. Or better, what makes an amp LESS detailed, which i think (although i am not sure) is the distortion. My theory is that once it distorts, it distorts all frequencies, therefore they start to mix, thus making an amp less detailed. If i am wrong, please, by all means, correct me.
But if i am right, the amp with less distortion would be the amp with more details and better instrumental separation.
Could someone shed some light on this?
What i am more interested in is if this blameless amp is able to be detailed. Now, what i don't know is what makes an amp be detailed. Or better, what makes an amp LESS detailed, which i think (although i am not sure) is the distortion. My theory is that once it distorts, it distorts all frequencies, therefore they start to mix, thus making an amp less detailed. If i am wrong, please, by all means, correct me.
But if i am right, the amp with less distortion would be the amp with more details and better instrumental separation.
Could someone shed some light on this?
When deciding what to build, a good place to start is by looking around at commercial offerings and thinking about what amplifier you would buy. Select a few. See what is common about the ones that you like (eg eg mid-price, low bias class AB, high feedback, super low THD, high DF, dual-differential everything or maybe something completely opposite: big heavy class A, lo-fb, simple circuits etc.)
Then take a look at the DIY amps that come closest to the approaches that you like.
If you find someone spouting for DIY the 'best' amplifier' ever,
but there is nothing remotely similar on the market that is successful,
then just make sure you can understand why that is the case.
Then take a look at the DIY amps that come closest to the approaches that you like.
If you find someone spouting for DIY the 'best' amplifier' ever,
but there is nothing remotely similar on the market that is successful,
then just make sure you can understand why that is the case.
I can't say which amplifier i would buy without listening to it. Here in Baia Mare we don't actually have many amplifiers i could listen to. That's why i stated what i'm after and count on your experience as a guide.
Other than that, i'm still waiting for a confirmation (or not) of what i said about an amp being more or less detailed.
Other than that, i'm still waiting for a confirmation (or not) of what i said about an amp being more or less detailed.
Fair enough.. In addition the very useful opinions you will undoubtedly recieve here, maybe worth also reading the (free) reviews available on the Stereophile website from professional reviewers who listen to (and measure) a lot of amps.
Blameless suggests pure (no blame) audio - no distortion. I'm sure that's obvious. That is the engineers' type of amplifier that may measure only in the parts-per million of distortion. It does not mean dull sounding but it does mean that there are no intended distortion effects as are evident in many audiophile quality amplifiers.
Imaging is the percieved relative position of instruments, voices etc. on the "sound stage". This is partly defined by the studio left-right mix but some people like to enhance this by whatever methods are available. Higher harmonics help to locate sound sources and the actual range of harmonics provides some sense of relative depth or distance from the listener and even vertical information. The fact that this does not mimic a real experience though, can also lead to some poor results as well as average and good ones for those who can't get the needed distortion spectrum realistic enough.
This is not just tone controls or EQ. Distortion is the desired effect that can enhance the whole stereo audio experience. There are plenty of high-end brands that put existing and probably induced distortion to some good effect in their products. Goldmund would be just one.
Success with this will be pretty closely guarded by those who make this their business though, so don't expect more than generalised comments on how to achieve this. Few of us are much good at it anyway, from comments I read but there are commercial manufacturer forums here that will sell you good products.
From another perspective, these enhancements don't often scale up to high power systems very well and certainly don't suit multi-channel applications where there is interference with the specific processing used for Dolby/DTS or other synthesized codecs. However, if you are considering only a personal stereo system for domestic use, a good design like a small SE class A design or product, can lead to an extremely good experience. It's a pity that you can't just make more sophisticated designs for yourself but anyone who knows how to do this reliably is going to want serious money for their ideas.
If you really want a high power system, it would be better to go with reputable big amp designs as already discussed. These are not the ultimate in stereo performance but have the reputation of being good to listen to whilst having plenty of smooth power to compensate. The other very important consideration is that taking on DIY projects will soon change your wish list of what you want anyway. You don't yet know what you will get with any design, regardless of cost, power or advice, so kept reading threads before deciding you want this or that or you like this guy's opinions etc. Don't assume anything you read in this short time will remain interesting to you for long, it's a huge field to choose from. 😎
Imaging is the percieved relative position of instruments, voices etc. on the "sound stage". This is partly defined by the studio left-right mix but some people like to enhance this by whatever methods are available. Higher harmonics help to locate sound sources and the actual range of harmonics provides some sense of relative depth or distance from the listener and even vertical information. The fact that this does not mimic a real experience though, can also lead to some poor results as well as average and good ones for those who can't get the needed distortion spectrum realistic enough.
This is not just tone controls or EQ. Distortion is the desired effect that can enhance the whole stereo audio experience. There are plenty of high-end brands that put existing and probably induced distortion to some good effect in their products. Goldmund would be just one.
Success with this will be pretty closely guarded by those who make this their business though, so don't expect more than generalised comments on how to achieve this. Few of us are much good at it anyway, from comments I read but there are commercial manufacturer forums here that will sell you good products.
From another perspective, these enhancements don't often scale up to high power systems very well and certainly don't suit multi-channel applications where there is interference with the specific processing used for Dolby/DTS or other synthesized codecs. However, if you are considering only a personal stereo system for domestic use, a good design like a small SE class A design or product, can lead to an extremely good experience. It's a pity that you can't just make more sophisticated designs for yourself but anyone who knows how to do this reliably is going to want serious money for their ideas.
If you really want a high power system, it would be better to go with reputable big amp designs as already discussed. These are not the ultimate in stereo performance but have the reputation of being good to listen to whilst having plenty of smooth power to compensate. The other very important consideration is that taking on DIY projects will soon change your wish list of what you want anyway. You don't yet know what you will get with any design, regardless of cost, power or advice, so kept reading threads before deciding you want this or that or you like this guy's opinions etc. Don't assume anything you read in this short time will remain interesting to you for long, it's a huge field to choose from. 😎
I laugh every time I hear protest against using a preamp, EQ tone control etc.
I think the concept of blameless is that the amplifier does its job of amplifying the signal without injecting an audible amount of distortion.
This does not mean that when connected to an unknown set of speakers set up in an unknown acoustic environment listened to by lets say me, who is no longer 15 years old and has lost my pristine hearing I once had.
You see many people with spectacles for there eyes, maybe we need to using aids to make our ears perfect to?
Its my opinion that even taking the perfect amp into my lounge with my speakers and with me listening to it, will not sound the same compared to the sound the audio engineers had when setting up the master of the CD I'm listening to.
This does not even begin to take into account that different people are different.
Some people want to listen to lets say 'Enigma: Principles of lust' and want tight bass strikes, and others want there chair to move out the door with each bass strike.
Regards
I think the concept of blameless is that the amplifier does its job of amplifying the signal without injecting an audible amount of distortion.
This does not mean that when connected to an unknown set of speakers set up in an unknown acoustic environment listened to by lets say me, who is no longer 15 years old and has lost my pristine hearing I once had.
You see many people with spectacles for there eyes, maybe we need to using aids to make our ears perfect to?
Its my opinion that even taking the perfect amp into my lounge with my speakers and with me listening to it, will not sound the same compared to the sound the audio engineers had when setting up the master of the CD I'm listening to.
This does not even begin to take into account that different people are different.
Some people want to listen to lets say 'Enigma: Principles of lust' and want tight bass strikes, and others want there chair to move out the door with each bass strike.
Regards
if low-thd is your thing...
measures at 0.000x%
Lowish heat, few parts, super-stable, easy to build: renardson MJR-7
looks to suit multiamp needs quite nicely imo.
Audio Amplifier Design
theres an build&test article in french somewhere as well that independantly verifies the results.
measures at 0.000x%
Lowish heat, few parts, super-stable, easy to build: renardson MJR-7
looks to suit multiamp needs quite nicely imo.
Audio Amplifier Design
theres an build&test article in french somewhere as well that independantly verifies the results.
Hi Brlmat,
Man, I can relate to what you are going through. I remember being right where you are. An idea of nirvana in an amplifier. When I built my first one, I went through a similar search as this. I got so many different suggestions my head was spinning. I too, thought I needed lots of power to get the headroom needed to produce the sound I was looking for. Over the last month I have spent a lot of time working in my room where I have all my DIY amps set up. I have a 6 disc CD player hooked up to two different Preamps, a Bryston .5B and a Sony EP9ES. I also have 5 pair of speakers set up. JBL 4411, JBL 4425, EVENT 20/20, Dynaudio BM6 & Boston Acoustics HD7 Bookshelves. I can quickly switch between any of the amps and speakers. You know what? They all sound good and they all sound different. I can put on a Jazz album and one amp/speaker will be just astounding, and then a Country CD will start playing and I will think, wow that's a little harsher than I remember, and I will switch to a different amp/speaker combo and it will sound better. The next CD will come on and I can switch through amp/speaker combos and find another combo that sounds best to me at that time. All the amps are of different output power and they all play plenty loud to drive me out of my room if needed.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is probably no true nirvana when it comes to audio equipment. There are just too many variables. A song that was mastered to sound good in a car won't necessarily sound good on High fidelity system in a living room. No matter what you build, it will have it's strengths and weaknesses and if you are anything like me, it will only be the first in a string of DIY amps. Once bitten.............
Blessings, Terry
Man, I can relate to what you are going through. I remember being right where you are. An idea of nirvana in an amplifier. When I built my first one, I went through a similar search as this. I got so many different suggestions my head was spinning. I too, thought I needed lots of power to get the headroom needed to produce the sound I was looking for. Over the last month I have spent a lot of time working in my room where I have all my DIY amps set up. I have a 6 disc CD player hooked up to two different Preamps, a Bryston .5B and a Sony EP9ES. I also have 5 pair of speakers set up. JBL 4411, JBL 4425, EVENT 20/20, Dynaudio BM6 & Boston Acoustics HD7 Bookshelves. I can quickly switch between any of the amps and speakers. You know what? They all sound good and they all sound different. I can put on a Jazz album and one amp/speaker will be just astounding, and then a Country CD will start playing and I will think, wow that's a little harsher than I remember, and I will switch to a different amp/speaker combo and it will sound better. The next CD will come on and I can switch through amp/speaker combos and find another combo that sounds best to me at that time. All the amps are of different output power and they all play plenty loud to drive me out of my room if needed.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is probably no true nirvana when it comes to audio equipment. There are just too many variables. A song that was mastered to sound good in a car won't necessarily sound good on High fidelity system in a living room. No matter what you build, it will have it's strengths and weaknesses and if you are anything like me, it will only be the first in a string of DIY amps. Once bitten.............
Blessings, Terry
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Thanks Terry! This is exactly how i am right now. I'll just build this one and, as i'll play all my music off a pc, i'll tune it the way i like it: mega immersion, clear powerful bass, clean trebles, room corrections etc etc etc.
Just understand, the better the system is at purity, clarity, separation, etc, the more it will show the warts in the recording, mixing, mastering, etc imposed in the studio. Those things are much less noticeable on a lessor system.
Enjoy the process and the journey!
Enjoy the process and the journey!
Why not implement a pcb design that at least initially has a front end and OPS board, that way you could build a not too expensive front end to try different topologies until you found one that suits your taste. Then design a board to make a group buy feasible. Ostripper did that a lot when he did the HB.😀
HOW much voltage difference is there to go to 300 watts. Maybe just add one more OPS pair? I like to make amps that loaf, and do not have to strain to make music.
HOW much voltage difference is there to go to 300 watts. Maybe just add one more OPS pair? I like to make amps that loaf, and do not have to strain to make music.
What kind of room are you guys listening in? My Symasym is one of my loudest amps and it uses a 25-0-25Vac transformer. Are you guys using very inefficient speakers or something? Most on the time my volume control is at 9:00 or lower and 7:00 is off.
Yeah, i play flacs anyway so that's not a biggie. Still, i love my music clear.
I've noticed the subjective volume difference between a 30W amp and a 300W at 9.00 position can be nothing - depending on the match of sensitivities of amp, preamp and other components and the pots. used in the preamp. Add to that the fact that 10 times the power is roughly only twice as loud in the midrange frequencies and power becomes a matter of "enough is as good as a feast" for domestic audio systems.
However, a large number of DIYs are also Magneplanar speaker fans and I guess most of you will know that you'll need a welding set or motor drive to get them going. Even the HF load impedance is enough to scare off amplifier builders. It seems an irresponsible approach to consumer product design but customers love 'em and needing a big old amp. is not a difficult matter with plenty of cheap used stereo equipment available or the option to DIY.
Of course, there are plenty of DIY guys who like the power trip and would not listen to less than 250W systems on the grounds they might miss something unless there is plenty of overkill. 'Sort of a cultural and security thing but I think people opt to super-size, or go for overkill etc. with almost anything they have a particular interest in, unless their finances or governments prevent it.
I built the Leach Low Tim, output around 100 watts. Very nice sound and it was my first non kit amp. I then built a version that used a Dunlap Clarke 50 pound transformer. Night and day for my ears. I do not exactly remember the wattage of the larger one, but it was north of 300. I would like to build a 400 or 500, but I have seen nothing on DIYAudio that comes close and has some, IMHO, the specs I am looking for. I am waiting to see what Bonzai has coming later. Some like Vanilla others Chocolate, I like Powerful Butter Pecan below zero. How many folks here have eaten IceCream made with Liquid Nitrogen? We have a store here that serves it, and line is around the block most nights.
Hi Guys
Magnaplanars and other ESLs need lots of current, since they are a capacitive load.
A pure capacitance has current out of phase with voltage by 90-degrees. When V=0. I is maximum. Most amps will not tolerate a load like this, and as it happens, because a transformer interface is used between the amp and the ESL element itself, the phase angle is somewhat less than 90-degrees.
The recommendation that the amp be so high powered is to allow a _conventionally designed_ amp with typical protection circuits to be able to drive the speaker to useful loudness.
All you really need is for the output stage to be able to deliver full current at zero volts out. This means the full supply voltage is across the output devices while they conduct that maximum current. To simplify it, it is like the amp works into a dead short without shutting down, dissipating the full power of the supply as heat off the heat sink.
It's easy to design an amp to do this and there is at least one commercial product on the market like this. Just expand the output stage with more pairs and drivers to match. Expand the heat sinks. Make sure the PT is over-sized to keep its temp and EMI down.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
Magnaplanars and other ESLs need lots of current, since they are a capacitive load.
A pure capacitance has current out of phase with voltage by 90-degrees. When V=0. I is maximum. Most amps will not tolerate a load like this, and as it happens, because a transformer interface is used between the amp and the ESL element itself, the phase angle is somewhat less than 90-degrees.
The recommendation that the amp be so high powered is to allow a _conventionally designed_ amp with typical protection circuits to be able to drive the speaker to useful loudness.
All you really need is for the output stage to be able to deliver full current at zero volts out. This means the full supply voltage is across the output devices while they conduct that maximum current. To simplify it, it is like the amp works into a dead short without shutting down, dissipating the full power of the supply as heat off the heat sink.
It's easy to design an amp to do this and there is at least one commercial product on the market like this. Just expand the output stage with more pairs and drivers to match. Expand the heat sinks. Make sure the PT is over-sized to keep its temp and EMI down.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
True... I owned ML CLS's that would trip the protection circuits on my Nakamichi PA-7's when driven a bit hard... so I had to lug out the Adcome GFA-565's to drive them with no issues... (although the Adcom were not as Silky sounding as the Nak's)
Hello guys!
I'm completely sure i'll build the blameless amp after reading this.
I am thinking of adding a 10-band eq and i found this schematic. It doesn't look too hard to make, although i ran into a problem. I want it stereo (duh!). The thing is that i don't know exactly how i should design the board.
Should i make 2 mono board and link them to stereo pots using signal cable(shielded cables)? Or should i make a stereo board?
The thing is that i want to minimize cross-talk.
If i make them on the same board i could use 3 opamps for one channel only and 3 others for the other channel. The problem here is that for one channel, the copper lines would be longer and more straps will be used, but i'd have it all on one board with on board pots.
If i go the other way and make to identical boards i could stack them and run signal wires to the pots. Theoretically no cross-talk, identical performance and also easier to design. The downside? The wires to the pots...
Which way should i go?
Also, Struth, would you be so kind to make a layout for the blameless schematic? No protection on board, just two points to connect the no clip schematic (built on another board) to it. All the output devices on the same side, V+ and V- connections on the left and right sides of the board, ground and input connections in the middle of the long side of the board opposite to the power bjts and output in the middle of the board.
Is this doable? Could you do it?
Thank you a lot guys!
I'm completely sure i'll build the blameless amp after reading this.
I am thinking of adding a 10-band eq and i found this schematic. It doesn't look too hard to make, although i ran into a problem. I want it stereo (duh!). The thing is that i don't know exactly how i should design the board.
Should i make 2 mono board and link them to stereo pots using signal cable(shielded cables)? Or should i make a stereo board?
The thing is that i want to minimize cross-talk.
If i make them on the same board i could use 3 opamps for one channel only and 3 others for the other channel. The problem here is that for one channel, the copper lines would be longer and more straps will be used, but i'd have it all on one board with on board pots.
If i go the other way and make to identical boards i could stack them and run signal wires to the pots. Theoretically no cross-talk, identical performance and also easier to design. The downside? The wires to the pots...
Which way should i go?
Also, Struth, would you be so kind to make a layout for the blameless schematic? No protection on board, just two points to connect the no clip schematic (built on another board) to it. All the output devices on the same side, V+ and V- connections on the left and right sides of the board, ground and input connections in the middle of the long side of the board opposite to the power bjts and output in the middle of the board.
Is this doable? Could you do it?
Thank you a lot guys!
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