It's also another reason for going active of course. 🙂
(Back EMF from each driver won't affect the others)
Aaahh, that's the secret of achieving good sound ... you listen to the the tweeter, really listen ... it's the best measuring instrument in the audio world, IMO. Mediocre, lacklustre, unrealistic sound = tweeter will sound like crap up close. Special, magic, convincing sound = tweeter ... huuuh? ... where are you, you little devil??
Just listening to the UULE at the moment, the cheap TV setup - what it particularly gets right is what people might call the upper midrange: on the slow jazz piece playing at the moment, the tinkling of the high notes on the piano and the brush work of the drummer ...
This aspect of the sound is what I often hear being mangled on ambitious, expensive systems ... which means rapid onset of fatigue ...
This aspect of the sound is what I often hear being mangled on ambitious, expensive systems ... which means rapid onset of fatigue ...
For voice clarity, a relatively narrow band (about 300 Hz to 3 kHz) must be reproduced clearly. And you are correct that many commercial speakers mangle this range, largely because of crossovers (hint: place your crossovers out of this range for maximum clarity) and woofer cone breakup. But with booming lows and ear scorching highs, it sounds "mad tite" to the typical consumer.
Consider the typical single note car subwoofer- nuff said.
@ adason
I like to think that I am objective - I'm always rolling my eyes when I read something like "this cable lifts veils off and I can hear the music more clearly" - I swear I want to VOMIT when I read that kind of garbage.
And... Experts I talk to keep swearing up and down, that the amps don't make much difference - unless they are CLIPPING. The way they handle clipping, according to these "experts" I talk to is the only real difference so long as you're using an amp with decent power for what you need.
BUT, I swear I keep thinking to myself, over and over, that something about my amp makes music sound "dry", "lifeless", not quite harsh... It can play LOUD AND CLEAN it seems like it doesn't even break a sweat playing at rock concert volumes. But, if I just want to listen to some nice music, not so loud - it just doesn't give me warmth and naturalness somehow.
I feel like I'm not being scientific when I say that, I feel like I am betraying the truth or such, maybe? Anyway, my amp is the Onkyo TS-DX787. It's superb for home theater, I particularly like a good 5.1 DTS soundtrack played back through it, just not music.
@ Cal - I also think maybe tweeters are generally crappy sounding? But the tweeter used in the Revel Salon Ultima (1st gen) didn't seem to give me any fatigue - in fact, it was the first tweeter to make me give up my bias against metal dome tweeters. It didn't bother me at all. The other tweeter I liked was my old 1970's era paper cone used in my cheap 2-way bookshelf speakers I got from my dad when I was a kid.
Other than that, I haven't really tried tweeters that I've liked in any of my own systems yet - I never "finish*" speaker designs I start because I get discouraged before they're done I think...
*(I have helped on some commercial designs that did get finished, but none just for myself yet)
I like to think that I am objective - I'm always rolling my eyes when I read something like "this cable lifts veils off and I can hear the music more clearly" - I swear I want to VOMIT when I read that kind of garbage.
And... Experts I talk to keep swearing up and down, that the amps don't make much difference - unless they are CLIPPING. The way they handle clipping, according to these "experts" I talk to is the only real difference so long as you're using an amp with decent power for what you need.
BUT, I swear I keep thinking to myself, over and over, that something about my amp makes music sound "dry", "lifeless", not quite harsh... It can play LOUD AND CLEAN it seems like it doesn't even break a sweat playing at rock concert volumes. But, if I just want to listen to some nice music, not so loud - it just doesn't give me warmth and naturalness somehow.
I feel like I'm not being scientific when I say that, I feel like I am betraying the truth or such, maybe? Anyway, my amp is the Onkyo TS-DX787. It's superb for home theater, I particularly like a good 5.1 DTS soundtrack played back through it, just not music.
@ Cal - I also think maybe tweeters are generally crappy sounding? But the tweeter used in the Revel Salon Ultima (1st gen) didn't seem to give me any fatigue - in fact, it was the first tweeter to make me give up my bias against metal dome tweeters. It didn't bother me at all. The other tweeter I liked was my old 1970's era paper cone used in my cheap 2-way bookshelf speakers I got from my dad when I was a kid.
Other than that, I haven't really tried tweeters that I've liked in any of my own systems yet - I never "finish*" speaker designs I start because I get discouraged before they're done I think...
*(I have helped on some commercial designs that did get finished, but none just for myself yet)
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But earlier when I said
you said:coppertop said:
fas42 said:
...which of course made me feel pretty bad, because it meant there must be something wrong with my system, unlike your own magnificent Aldi TV. But it's OK now, as I realise you, too, listen to a system to see what it gets "right" rather than "wrong" - you were 'speaking with forked tongue' as they say.
That's why they invented the loudness button on 1970s amps. Check out Fletcher Munson curves. It basically shows that if you ever listen to music at less than realistic levels without additional EQ, it will always sound unnatural, lifeless. The loudness button was an attempt to rectify this by boosting bass and treble when listening at low volumes.
(There's nothing wrong with your amp)
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Aahh, the 'magic' of the word "listen" ...
I think I have mentioned that the Aldi isn't "perfect", just that it does an excellent job considering what it is - its job, for me, is to prove a point. And, for a variety of reasons, all the systems I've fiddled with have been on song, or not, at various times.
The point I was trying to make, unsuccessfully apparently, is a point is reached when the analytical side of one's mind relaxes, because the sound is just, 'right'. If the sound is below par then it can be irritatingly so, and then I turn it off, or start trying some tweaks - or it can just go pleasantly ordinary, and I just let it be, it just becomes like a kitchen radio at that point.
The Aldi has got zero low end, and it rattles and buzzes when the wrong, too loud bassy note comes along - there's plenty to pick wrong. But if I'm happy with the overall performance there's nothing to prevent the idle thought coming in, noting what appeals about the texture of the sound at a particular moment. And BTW, that's how I listen to real music, I find the pattern, the sense of the sound filling the air as intriguing as the melody, etc.
If I just wanted to listen to raw music, perhaps in the way you mean it, I could go back to the HMV valve gramophone of my youth, with the pull start on the arm, and the flip over mono/stereo needles ...
This is definitely not right. If live, acoustic instruments are playing a long way from you in the open they will always sound lifelike, the real deal. As you move closer to them the sound will become more intense, it will start to dominate other sounds that are around.
And that's exactly how a good system works - in the reverse sense, you can turn the volume down and down and down, and it will still have that quality of 'specialness', to the point of becoming inaudible ...
Agreed
Disagree.
Many ways of messing up low volume - mismatched speaker components; AB design with crap biasing or mismatched gain between "A" and "B" sections.
The list goes on.
I'm listening to low volume right now (barely audible) Bass free, definitely - but lifeless it is not.
indeed
By definition, a lifelike sound system will never be lifeless.
I think listening fatigue can come from bad enginerred speakers or amps or source, it can probably come from anything in the chain. Diy is a risky game me think and one has to have good references to compare your own creations. If one experience listing fatigue even while listening to the sound not too loud, its clearly because one of the components in the chain is not right.
Even a chip amp with a ipod source will sound almost lifelike in a good system with good speakers.
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No. Moving further away from the source does not just reduce the volume like a volume control.
Well it depends on your definition of lifeless. A full orchestra playing the 1812 Overture at 100mW might blow your mind, but to me it sounds unnatural and lifeless. If I was listening to it from a distance of 100 yards, I would pick up cues that still told me it was very loud and powerful at its source - unlike listening to it on an Aldi TV*, for example. A girl-and-guitar might sound fine at that (realistic) volume probably.
So, as you turned the knob towards zero while listening to the 1812, at what point would you say it began to sound unnatural and lifeless? The way some audiophiles talk, their system is still full of life, colour and musicality with the volume at zero, or turned off.
* Hi fi's best kept secret.
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Some people maybe have a higher level of discernment as to what is lifelike, and thus
need the volume to be correct.
Putting it all together, if we consider the Fletcher Munson curves as having some sort of scientific truth, by definition a system that sounds lifelike at unrealistic volume levels can not sound lifelike at a realistic level.
Anyone can say that their system is full of life and musicality even when switched off, but it doesn't make it true. Anyone can make wise-sounding statements that suggest they alone have the special knowledge to transcend measurements and engineering, but it doesn't make it true. Maybe their systems only have 2W amplifiers and full range speakers. Maybe the audiophile only listens to Cliff Richard and hates the sound of a full orchestra. Maybe they never turn the system up because of their neighbours. Maybe the audiophile only listens for one thing when judging good sound and ignores everything else - I know a real audiophile who is not sensitive to dynamic compression like I am because he's happy at <1W into small speakers playing jazz and string quartets.
I hate the way a genuinely interesting question turns into an Emperor's New Clothes-fest, where any occurrence of the phenomenon of listener fatigue is turned into an implication of there being something wrong with the listener's system. And by implication that 'the accuser's' system is perfect, and that they alone have special powers and knowledge that elude the fatiguee. Listening too loud or too quiet? No, it's something wrong with the system. A good system, like an Aldi TV, can be listened to for infinite hours at any volume without any trace of listener fatigue: your Meridian DSP8000s must be crap.
Among all the factors that apply to this question, the most important one imo and which has been at least alluded to, is speed. If you want reality, it has to be as fast as reality. Or close enough to fool you. And it doesn't matter what the speaker design is or the source. The heart of the system is the amp. The only component that after you've gotten used to the attributes of your new addition, you end up 'listening' to, again.
What do you mean by speed? I certainly have the idea that a worthy aim is phase correction and time alignment. The DSP-oriented audiophile could correct phase errors in the amp-speaker combination. Or do you mean something else?
I'm referring to rise times and slewing rates (real world) as they relate to the amp. Actual performance. Not THD or FR. TIM is however an important factor in terms of transient response. When the amp is 'fast', it sounds real.