once again suggesting you've never been in a compliance lab or read any comprehensive audio amplifier testing standards, AP's app notes, Self's, Cordell's books, articles...
... so who exactly are these "audio designers"/"conventional engineers" you keep parodying - surely they should be more famous than the Three Stooges
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Yes, everywhere in fact ...
Not so much flawed but very difficult to set up so they are truly testing what you think they're testing. I feel in many cases they're really testing the competence of the test setup and procedures more than anything else ... or the patience of the listener to do something quite boring ...
The trouble often is that the brain wants to turn what it's hearing into something meaningful, that it can relate to - evolution has done its job well. So, if I really wanted, and needed to differentiate between two sound passages - note I didn't say music - I would turn them into repetitive patterns of sound which subjectively are "nonsense". The phrase would be shortened, and then repeated, say, 10 times in succession - listening to it then comes across like a mantra of sound, a texture - signifying nothing. Do that for both versions; then listen to one, then the other - the differences then scream at you ...
I'm not the slightest bit interested in that - I want to see the results of such tests in a Stereophile review ...
Put it this way: I want to buy a car that has a smooth ride over rough roads, and my commitment to that car will be for 5 years, say; do I accept the saleman's assurances that the engineers have done their job 'perfectly', or do I take a demo for a spin and deliberately drive up and down a few rough roads that I know of ...?
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Atkinson says they are flawed then turns around and also says they are too difficult to implement. I guess he is covering all bases so he can excuse himself from doing them at all.
If you don't have the patience to sit through a DBT and can't listen to a passage of music to see if you can pick out a difference between components, then that doesn't bode well for making any sort of decision in life. I think people get lazy and want instant gratification. It is called a "test" after all and patience is required. It's not a contest so people need to chill out and enjoy it, after all it's for their own benefit. If it gets to the point where you feel pressured to hear a difference, then there's a good chance you can't so mark it down as so. Maybe there are no audible differences but you want there to be?
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I keep saying there ought to be money involved. You'd quickly learn to pick real differences if money were at stake. Pick right, you win money, pick wrong you lose.
Just this very moment I've effectively done the very thing I've mentioned earlier, which is to "hypnotise" my hearing to hear very different passages sound the same. I took that video mentioned just earlier, and narrowed down to a passage where the recorded singer does a phase and the live one repeats the same immediately after. Very obvious which is which on a quick run through; then looked at the waveforms here, totally different visually, the spectrums of the two versions are miles apart over the whole range of frequencies.
There was still a difference in average level, so boosted one version to roughly match the other, barely made any subjective difference. Then, the interesting part: selected the section of just the two versions of the phrase, recorded and live, and put it on continuous repeat - so was listening to A,B,A,B,A,B,A .. etc. And, as I listened , the two versions started to merge, with each repeat they became closer and closer in sound, I was now hearing C,C,C,C,C,C,C - my brain was 'concluding' that they were effectively the same, it was no longer trying to differentiate between A and B, it was saying that the average of the two, C, was good enough to keep it happy ...
And I think this is where the Achilles Heel of the DBT lies ...
There was still a difference in average level, so boosted one version to roughly match the other, barely made any subjective difference. Then, the interesting part: selected the section of just the two versions of the phrase, recorded and live, and put it on continuous repeat - so was listening to A,B,A,B,A,B,A .. etc. And, as I listened , the two versions started to merge, with each repeat they became closer and closer in sound, I was now hearing C,C,C,C,C,C,C - my brain was 'concluding' that they were effectively the same, it was no longer trying to differentiate between A and B, it was saying that the average of the two, C, was good enough to keep it happy ...
And I think this is where the Achilles Heel of the DBT lies ...
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BS Tweaks ?
Sorry, I chimed in late here.
Has anyone mentioned the fabled Totem Beak ?
Some left over spun aluminum. Marketing must have pissed themselves when they actually sold a few.....
Or around the turn of the millennium there was a Super high speed CD spinner. You put your disc in, shut the cover and started it up. Fearing that the disc didn't actually come flying out (like an over sized Ninja throwing star), after it was done it's "magic", the Sound Stage was so much deeper ! And the improved tonal balance.....hey, where did all that nasty sibilance go ?
Sorry, I chimed in late here.
Has anyone mentioned the fabled Totem Beak ?Some left over spun aluminum. Marketing must have pissed themselves when they actually sold a few.....
Or around the turn of the millennium there was a Super high speed CD spinner. You put your disc in, shut the cover and started it up. Fearing that the disc didn't actually come flying out (like an over sized Ninja throwing star), after it was done it's "magic", the Sound Stage was so much deeper ! And the improved tonal balance.....hey, where did all that nasty sibilance go ?
DBT has failed to convince for many years. It's an intractable argument, banned in some forums. Time to admit defeat.
No no, that would just add stress which would upset their delicate senses and cause them to fail the test (same thing that happens when they're not able to peek).
se
Reminds me of how one note of a trill might dominate, or not, depending on several factors. Applies also to how two tunes played at the same time are perceived.
Although you are swapping at a much slower rate, it could be that you are simply locking on to one version, rather than an illusory hybrid.
Or it could be that you became unable to tell the difference as soon as you lost track of which was which 🙂
if you want to pick words out and ignore what weve been talking about just to 'win' an argument, happy days for you, you win!! its ironic though, because to do that, you have to have not read anything i've said, its pedantic and annoying🙄 its completely living out your claimed characterisation of me, thus hypocritical.
all of your examples involve multiple viewings over time, calculating using prior knowledge that the earth is round, prior math that proves the earth is round and navigational techniques, or tools. that is not looking and seeing the curve of the earth, it is not even looking and calculating. You have moved the goalposts and you have twisted my words to better suit your argument, ignoring the rest.
subjectivist? hahaha funny, this time you are funny for another reason jacco
to state again, the earth is round, I know the earth is round-ish
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the moment you see the video clip, your brain is already triggered....
no matter how you minimize it on the screen, it already registered on your brain...
visuals are retained more readily, and lasts longer in your brain than aurals,
No, they genuinely started to sound the same, I was looking away from the screen, almost daydreaming so to speak - what I felt was happening was that I was tuning into the message of the musical phrase, the emotional essence of it - and that aspect was dominating ...
I don't follow you here - are you suggesting that I'm replaying the video in my mind as I listen to audio only? All I can say is that you must have an amazingly strong visual focus ...
I dumped the video immediately, I'm only running the audio in Audacity ... and it's very easy to follow the flow of auditory activity.
even so, you can discard the video, but you have seen it already...
it is not the same thing as not having seen it since the beginning, this the "peeking" that we are talking about...
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