I tend to doubt it; playback using power amps exacerbates the problem, which is not what is happening during mastering. I suspect that it is more about sound engineering decisions at the time.
I have a few LPs that I know were digitally mastered that sound 'good'. Approximately 90% of the rest suffer from obtrusive digital diseases from a distracting to nearly unlistenable extent. It's not that it's impossible to make a 'good' (not accurate, but 'good') sounding red book recording, but the odds are generally against it.
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This is the "battle" of course, not between silicon and valve advocates, but to eliminate those distortion artifacts. The really interesting aspect is that the roughest, cheapest SS circuitry can be knocked into behaving itself if one makes the right moves; I'm doing an experiment right now on fiddling with ultra, ultra low end sound, an Aldi TV set with switching PS, class D chip amps driving microscopic speakers mounted in flimsy plastic. It easily sounds as horrible as this description implies - yet, if I do all the right things, "magic" emerges, natural, full, rich, satisfying sound can be coaxed from this seemingly impossible starting point ...
???? ... you're staring hard in the face of the classic digital distortion that I talk of, to say that. The first time you hear how staggeringly good the treble of Redbook really is, you'll be able to drop the perception that there is a "problem" with the format, rather than within most playback setups, where the real issues lie ...
I don't think it's as bad as you think it is. Just to test that, I took a bog standard 44.1K/16 bit music file (Lyle Lovett) and reduced its volume by 20dB. It was then saved at that lower level in 44.1/16. Reopened it was then boosted back up 20dB to its original level. Then saved again. Now there was the original file and a copy of it that had been cut down 20dB, then raised up again. All 16 bit.
I was sure I could hear the difference. I was wrong. The Foobar ABX test said there was a 91% probability that I was guessing, after 15 trials. 🙁 That probability didn't change much during the trial.
This was a file with an RMS average of -18dB, so reduced it was way down at -38dB RMS. That should be pretty nasty down there. If it was, I couldn't tell.
I've listened to and measured my digital volume control and all I can find is a reduction in S/N ratio when reducing the volume. No surprise. But not audible. I found no harmonic or inharmonic distortion at all.
I can post the sound clips here, if you'd like.
BTW, reducing the volume 44dB then bringing it back up again, I could tell 100% in 20 trials. It picked up some noise, mostly hiss. I doubt any analog selection would have done as well.
I have a test CD, the classic Denon, with classical snippet at full volume, then next track, the same at -20db, then -40 and finally -60dB. The last is so telling, even with the volume pegged at maximum, and putting my ear right next to the speaker driver, it's only just audible. So what does it sound like? Well, it sounds like just like the full volume version, only noisy! Like talking to someone on the phone, and hearing their stereo playing in the background. The content is all there, the instruments sound normal, it doesn't sound a mess! With the old Yamaha, for this -60dB version, I can hear digital glitching during the quiet spaces, but this is subjectively masked once there is some volume in the signal; the recent DACs I've tried this on are dead clean, the noise doesn't sound digital at all even at the quietest points.
Doing experiments instead of waving your hands or making up numbers will not forward the art of audio. 😀
Sorry!
Audio enthusiasts have been doing this for decades, except the terminology is different - some translations:
Situation: Low subjective levels of distortion
Indicator Terms: naturalness, palpable, presence, realistic, jump factor, airy, alive
Situation: Significant treble distortion of one type
Indicator Terms: brittle, glare, glassy, hard, metallic, screechy, shrill, steely, strident, grainy, gritty, harsh
Situation: Significant treble distortion of another type
Indicator Terms: dead, dull, muffled, boring, lifeless, uninvolving, closed-in, slow, sluggish
Get the idea ...?
Yes, obvious where it came from ... but pointing out that the audiophile terms are really just classifying, creating signature terms for, various types of distortion ...
Well,
Try playing the Beatles Revolution on different CD players and systems..
Watch them fall apart...😀..not a fan of it however it shows a few weaknesses..
Then some quiet Mary Black or something similar..
Always good for a laugh..
You missed one out Frank..there is a hole in your image<<<sound only appears to come from extreme left and right of the sound stage..
Smear...the positions of the images are not defined...The up the down the centre the pan left and right are not "correct"..
Just for fun..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fidelity
Regards
M. Gregg
Try playing the Beatles Revolution on different CD players and systems..
Watch them fall apart...😀..not a fan of it however it shows a few weaknesses..
Then some quiet Mary Black or something similar..
Always good for a laugh..
You missed one out Frank..there is a hole in your image<<<sound only appears to come from extreme left and right of the sound stage..
Smear...the positions of the images are not defined...The up the down the centre the pan left and right are not "correct"..
Just for fun..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fidelity
Regards
M. Gregg
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Too many reviewers appear to apply the first paragraph to moderate levels of low order distortion, the second to high levels of distortion with crossover issues and the last to low levels of distortion
Know what you mean! If your system is on the money, and people don't know what's coming, there will be a general call for fresh underwear!! That beautiful, dirty guitar should be magnificent in its grunginess throughout the song ...
As a variation, I have a live version of Hendrix's "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)" with brilliantly captured ambience, the drum kit, with cymbals, has been captured superbly on the left, and on the right the Marshall growls, snarls and spits at you beautifully. This is a track where you wish for an unlimited volume control, so that you can demolish your neighbours down the street ... 😀
I own a pair of SR80s. I decided to never sell them because they were the first to give me some decent sound.
but sometimes I really doubt anyone uses them for actual listening. they sound spectacular WRT detail and ambiance retrieval (for the price) but as far as actual long-term music listening goes they just can't work, IMO. I find them useful for late night movie viewing or when I watch a movie w/o subtitles, they allow me to understand speech more easily.
I would speculate that the hype comes from inexperienced listeners that are wow'ed by the detail.
one thing worth noting is that they don't change much with different amps.
if you disregard dithering and measure distortion on a per-sample basis, yes, you are right.
I would guess no dithering was done when those tracks were attenuated.
as a general note concerning CDs. in my experience that is confirmed by others, differences between recent production cheap-ish signal sources are practically negligible. the "saturation point" seems to be reached way sooner that most expect. and if the rest of the system is not up to level, the differences are still negligible, regardless of price. whenever I hear anyone raving about huge differences I look at the rest of their system. this made me realize the amount of hype floating around this issue: I'm sure I'd be able to find people who think they hear huge differences between DACs with PC speakers. somehow I'm not sure I can hear any difference at all with what I think to be a decent system.
as for how awful CDs sound like. I really wonder... I know people who often have the occasion to listen to a variety of very expensive systems, so I would guess they have at least a "vague" idea of what good sound is. some of them own such systems, and they acquired them based on actual comparisons, home testing etc. some of them even own good LP players and have collections of LPs.
but they preach a completely different gospel than the typical Internet one.
and that is that once a certain price for the digital source is exceeded, vinyl is easily bettered.
then, none of them were able to swear that hi-res formats are much better. in fact, the fact that they continually upgraded their systems tells me there's a ton of sonic information on those "crappy" CDs that is masked by lesser systems.
and yes, although this is partially hear say, I tend to trust people with a "background" I know. and experience taught me that the opinions of 1000 random people can actually add to less than an informed opinion coming from one man 🙂
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and thats provided those using the terms actually know what they are supposed to mean... clear as mud
my thoughts exactly, even the higher end models.
the only ones I dont mind are the HP2, which were a special edition alesandro with alloy exterior and wooden inner cup, they actually are quite fun and have a bit more balance, pretty comfy and not as painful. they are a little bit bass-heavy, but I dont mind a little bass bump in headphones.
i've had heaps here over the years for repair and recable/retermination work, pita to work on as are hotglued together. I find Grados decent for some very specific guitar heavy mid-centric rock, but ultimately very fatiguing and some of the models just jump instantly to exploring my frontal lobe from the inside out, the low treble is just too much! I really dont know what the fuss is about, even the HP1000 are scratchy, itchy, uncomfortable and ultimately ..meh...
oh and the MS-pro I had here is a bit better, it had some damping mods though.
disagree, their lack of decent electromechanical damping/higher than normal resonance means they dont always go will with amps with very low output impedance, the shriekiness becomes totally OTT
Pano said:
my thoughts exactly, even the higher end models.
the only ones I dont mind are the HP2, which were a special edition alesandro with alloy exterior and wooden inner cup, they actually are quite fun and have a bit more balance, pretty comfy and not as painful. they are a little bit bass-heavy, but I dont mind a little bass bump in headphones.
i've had heaps here over the years for repair and recable/retermination work, pita to work on as are hotglued together. I find Grados decent for some very specific guitar heavy mid-centric rock, but ultimately very fatiguing and some of the models just jump instantly to exploring my frontal lobe from the inside out, the low treble is just too much! I really dont know what the fuss is about, even the HP1000 are scratchy, itchy, uncomfortable and ultimately ..meh...
oh and the MS-pro I had here is a bit better, it had some damping mods though.
mr_push_pull said:
disagree, their lack of decent electromechanical damping/higher than normal resonance means they dont always go will with amps with very low output impedance, the shriekiness becomes totally OTT
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I'll have a go at this too.
it's about the audiophiles who don't actually listen to music for the mere pleasure of it. the types that buy certain CDs because they seem to be what they think to be "audiophile music".
the people I trust seem to be the ones with a love for music first and before all.
maybe that applies to the expensive ones. my SR80s sound practically identical with all amps. true, most of the amps I've tested them with (starting with the cheapest, IC-based headphone out of a vintage CD) are likely low output impedance.
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