After reading all the comments above, the way I see it is that those systems that perform poorly need a subwoofer or for those you who want live sound (which is not hi-fi). Thankfully my system gives the bass that I want i.e the way the sound engineer recorded it. For info: my speakers use the corners of the room as an extention, giving me good bass.
As an aside, has anyone ever heard a recording taken straight from the mixing desk before any enhancements and mixing, it actually has more dynamics and maybe you guys with subs would perhaps enjoy it more?
As an aside, has anyone ever heard a recording taken straight from the mixing desk before any enhancements and mixing, it actually has more dynamics and maybe you guys with subs would perhaps enjoy it more?
wouldn't dream of having music/hifi speakers that doesn't do at least 30hz
but for my bass guitar I prefer playing all whats above 100hz 😀 and still beats the crap out of any hifi
but playing music on hifi hifi with nothing below 100hz would be like no bass at all
can't say i understand why a bass guitar can shake the house with bass nodes above 100hz, but a hifi fails miserably
but for my bass guitar I prefer playing all whats above 100hz 😀 and still beats the crap out of any hifi
but playing music on hifi hifi with nothing below 100hz would be like no bass at all
can't say i understand why a bass guitar can shake the house with bass nodes above 100hz, but a hifi fails miserably
You need a woofer (not necessarily a subwoofer) that is capable of reproducing frequencies down to lets say 30Hz (for music) at the desired sound pressure level. If such a woofer is placed in a room the frequency response at the listening position gets heavily "distorted" by the room. This "distortion" has to be removed if HiFi is the goal. There are several solutions to the problem. One of them is the use of (multiple) subs.
Well, live sound is sound production, we're talking about reproduction.
How do you know that? Have you been present during mixing/mastering? You might like what you hear in your room but that might be very different from what the musician/mixer/mastering engineer heard.
Define "good bass". Did you try the sine burst test I had suggested earlier?
While it's true that most of today's recordings dramatically lack dynamics it's also true that not every musician has perfect playing skills. All the different effects and techniques in recording, mixing and mastering actually help in creating a more enjoyable or even more artistic recording.
I don't have a listening position....what would it show me ?
would it tell me why a bass guitar sounds like thunder above 100hz....and hifi doesn't ?
btw, my bass guitar low woofer is a Faital Pro monster, State of the Art 15" in closed 40liter box, and with 45hz Fs and 0.3Qts, no peaking at all, and rolls off early just below 100hz
and it still plays a monster thunder bass, sweet and clean, and shakes everything with ease
one day shortly after building I thought, wow, must one heck of a hifi woofer, or midbass at least
and what happened...it sounded like a poor midrange driver
its just weird
would it tell me why a bass guitar sounds like thunder above 100hz....and hifi doesn't ?
btw, my bass guitar low woofer is a Faital Pro monster, State of the Art 15" in closed 40liter box, and with 45hz Fs and 0.3Qts, no peaking at all, and rolls off early just below 100hz
and it still plays a monster thunder bass, sweet and clean, and shakes everything with ease
one day shortly after building I thought, wow, must one heck of a hifi woofer, or midbass at least
and what happened...it sounded like a poor midrange driver
its just weird
I think the first part is very true.
Think about the cost and effort to 'get the first octave done right' vs 'the last octave'.
Just get or buy the 'best tweeter', whatever that is, and you're done.
Now compare the task. So no wonder as you said most people just forget about it. And why not? After all, 'I already have sufficient bass and really enjoy what I have'. For sure, I take them at their word that they feel what they have is sufficient (and in the rare case they actually might have).
And, often they will compare their no sub sit to a poor sub install (they sounded disjointed or over bearing or muddied things up). That hearkens straight back to 'tricky'.
In essence, they have no yardstick by which to make their decision. I can acknowledge that this might sound like .no matter what you say the end result is you need subs', ie I can always say 'it was not set up right' or make any excuse under the sun(fire..hahaha)
So whilst I acknowledge that I hope the flip side can be seen to have truth. It IS far trickier to get the subs right. But I am certain that to make your decision on do I need subs you need to hear an install that IS well done. It is a different question 'do I need subs?' to 'do I need subs which will sound like those bad installs?'
My experience with the closing part of your sentence is the complete opposite. (I am in the happy position that due to annual events over here an awful lot of people come thru and hear my install) And, without exception, people go away with a completely new reality about bass. (it can get annoying in a way, ALL they will talk about is 'OMFG, the bass. I have never heard anything like it'. C'mon man, it does OTHER things well too ya know! 😀)
Sounds like I am bigging myself up. Not really, I am trying to give the universal reaction (prob a hundred people have come thru over the years???).
When people hear it, and for the first time, they always say 'I had no ideas what true bass is like'. It IS universally enjoyed.
MAJOR important point here. The mixing for a recording has to compress the dynamics. Originally to less than 65 dB as that is all a record could do, but even with the CD, most music is played via radios, internet and iPods, so dynamic range of less than 50 dB makes it more suitable to the medium. The only recording I ever heard that could almost, I say almost, convince me it was live was of a half-track master of an upright bass being bowed. B&W 801's, Levinson et al.
Remember the craze in the 70's about peak unlimiters? They could really help poor recordings, but the purists would never buy them. They stagnated as mid-fi ( and they were) so they never advanced to the high fidelity realm. Someone shroud try again. Heck, I want the loudness control back on my preamp.
Your bass guitar system obviously is louder above 100 Hz than your "miserable hifi"🙂.wouldn't dream of having music/hifi speakers that doesn't do at least 30hz
but for my bass guitar I prefer playing all whats above 100hz 😀 and still beats the crap out of any hifi
but playing music on hifi hifi with nothing below 100hz would be like no bass at all
can't say i understand why a bass guitar can shake the house with bass nodes above 100hz, but a hifi fails miserably
he, maybe its just that
I have another much cheaper 12" woofer 'system' that rolls off at 150hz
and that one can pound the floor like Im playing a big pedal drum
I have another much cheaper 12" woofer 'system' that rolls off at 150hz
and that one can pound the floor like Im playing a big pedal drum
More dynamics yes, but it is very unrefined, and also not balanced. A subwoofer has nothing to do with this. It would be unbalanced and unrefined whether a subwoofer is used or not.
I know I need them
My mains are capable down to 35Hz--about the range of most music. It would strain with the modern dropped tuning at higher volumes so, to protect the 8" woofers, I added a subwoofer crossed at 80Hz. A 3 cubic foot box with a 12 incher motivating an 18" passive radiator tuned to 21Hz.
Subs get a bad name because of car audio boomers, home theater systems with very small speakers attempting to blend with weak mid-bass and traditional marketing claiming a laptop can have a "subwoofer".
Most people when setting up home theater surround systems make a few errors and things go down quickly. Generally, they stuff the sub where it fits, turn the gain up waaay too loud so it is obvious where it is located then crank up the surround sound gains.
As far as needing a subwoofer for music--the home theater domination of audio almost demands it. Cheap amplifier power, long stroke woofers and home theater all came out in the 80's--and music then followed the capability. Bass guitars tuned to 31.5Hz, bass synth, special effects added to songs and the ever expanding electronic enhancement of instruments keep driving my woofers harder. My wife's Enya CD has material that drops down into the 20's 😱
If your mains can give you all the output you need from 40Hz and up, cross them at 40Hz to a subwoofer. A very expensive low pass filter but don't be surprised to see that thing moving these days.
You never know, you might develop a taste for pipe organs 😎
My mains are capable down to 35Hz--about the range of most music. It would strain with the modern dropped tuning at higher volumes so, to protect the 8" woofers, I added a subwoofer crossed at 80Hz. A 3 cubic foot box with a 12 incher motivating an 18" passive radiator tuned to 21Hz.
Subs get a bad name because of car audio boomers, home theater systems with very small speakers attempting to blend with weak mid-bass and traditional marketing claiming a laptop can have a "subwoofer".
Most people when setting up home theater surround systems make a few errors and things go down quickly. Generally, they stuff the sub where it fits, turn the gain up waaay too loud so it is obvious where it is located then crank up the surround sound gains.
As far as needing a subwoofer for music--the home theater domination of audio almost demands it. Cheap amplifier power, long stroke woofers and home theater all came out in the 80's--and music then followed the capability. Bass guitars tuned to 31.5Hz, bass synth, special effects added to songs and the ever expanding electronic enhancement of instruments keep driving my woofers harder. My wife's Enya CD has material that drops down into the 20's 😱
If your mains can give you all the output you need from 40Hz and up, cross them at 40Hz to a subwoofer. A very expensive low pass filter but don't be surprised to see that thing moving these days.
You never know, you might develop a taste for pipe organs 😎
So what you guys are saying is that B&O (my first hi-fi), Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Marantz, ...... et al, all got it wrong, and that what I have been doing for the last 40 years is not hi-fi?
That's my point exactly - unrefined, that's what hi-fi has become. And what I meant was that the extra headroom in unedited recordings would make these modern so called 'hi-fi's' sound even more potent.
That's my point exactly - unrefined, that's what hi-fi has become. And what I meant was that the extra headroom in unedited recordings would make these modern so called 'hi-fi's' sound even more potent.
ahh, now hit a soft spot I had forgotten about .... actually, I finnaly found a very intersting sub driver for closed box, so I might be working on one very soon 😉 ...and need to build amp and crossover
Just out of interest, do some of you people use these mega-subs with vinyl LPs? Is there an issue with rumble that has to be cut out with subsonic filters? Any issues with feedback from the sub back to the tonearm?
The listening position is where your ears are. It would show you how the frequency response is highly affected by the room and the position of listener and speaker. It would also show you that your bass amp is capable of playing louder than your HiFi.
Do you have measuring gear?
Nobody is saying that. They produced the best hi-fi two boxes could produce. That's what they sold .. it's what you, heck everybody, bought. What's being discussed here is a technique to improve LF response in a room.
Ok, so maybe you are convincing me to try one. What power are we talking about - 250 watts? And what design, I don't want monstrosities in my small lounge, my TQWP's are tuned for 45 Hz? 😱
First you would need to measure in order to understand what the acoustical problems in your room are. It's pretty pointless to implement a solution for an unknown problem.
bass amp is just a 2x 150watt LCAudio Mellenium hifi amp
not much special other than sanken output and monster toroid trafo
So what? It still might play louder than your HiFi.
So, do you have measuring gear? I know that people like to speculate but I find it rather annoying and a waste of time.
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