Sorry GM I am all over the place because the criteria has altered as the thread went on (and I'm all over the place at the best of times).
Looking at two completely different scenarios here, firstly deep bass for OB, and secondly subs for HT.
When I started the thread I had intended to repurpose the Pro 5100 drivers because I couldn't get sufficent bass out of them.
During the course of the thread I come to realise most of my issue was caused by a setting fault in my active xover.
I now believe I can achieve the results I am looking for from these drivers provided I just be patient enough to learn, and build some H boxes before jumping to conclusions.
So what I am looking from these Pro 5100 drivers are clean, low, OB bass.
I do want some separate subs to use in conjuction with, or as a replacement for the OB bass to watch movies.
So one scenario is Pro 5100 in H boxes plus separate subs for movies (music will be H boxes only)
Scenario two turn off the Pro 5100 music amp (leaving a hole below ~100Hz) and use a Rotel RB 1092 Class D - 1000w per channel into 4 ohm to power a more serious array of big drivers like this Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-468
WAF is not really an issue as she is easy going and understands my obsesion.
Currently I have an array of drivers for the OB including
1 x RAAL dipole tweeter
2 x ScanSpeak 12MUs (may be reduced to 1)
4 x ScanSpeak 18WUs (may be reduced to 2)
1 x Tc Sounds Pro 5100
All of these are per side...
Sub cabinet size can be a reasonable size (if required) as it doesn't have to sit with all the other drivers.
So depending on which scenario is optimal will probably depend on the best design I guess.
Would seem a bit wasteful to turn off two functioning 18" drivers, so perhaps just some seriously deep sub/s to fit under the OB woofers for movies?
I also have an RB 1091 (mono version of the 1092) to power the sub or bridge the 1092? plenty of options...
Looking at two completely different scenarios here, firstly deep bass for OB, and secondly subs for HT.
When I started the thread I had intended to repurpose the Pro 5100 drivers because I couldn't get sufficent bass out of them.
During the course of the thread I come to realise most of my issue was caused by a setting fault in my active xover.
I now believe I can achieve the results I am looking for from these drivers provided I just be patient enough to learn, and build some H boxes before jumping to conclusions.
So what I am looking from these Pro 5100 drivers are clean, low, OB bass.
I do want some separate subs to use in conjuction with, or as a replacement for the OB bass to watch movies.
So one scenario is Pro 5100 in H boxes plus separate subs for movies (music will be H boxes only)
Scenario two turn off the Pro 5100 music amp (leaving a hole below ~100Hz) and use a Rotel RB 1092 Class D - 1000w per channel into 4 ohm to power a more serious array of big drivers like this Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-468
WAF is not really an issue as she is easy going and understands my obsesion.
Currently I have an array of drivers for the OB including
1 x RAAL dipole tweeter
2 x ScanSpeak 12MUs (may be reduced to 1)
4 x ScanSpeak 18WUs (may be reduced to 2)
1 x Tc Sounds Pro 5100
All of these are per side...
Sub cabinet size can be a reasonable size (if required) as it doesn't have to sit with all the other drivers.
So depending on which scenario is optimal will probably depend on the best design I guess.
Would seem a bit wasteful to turn off two functioning 18" drivers, so perhaps just some seriously deep sub/s to fit under the OB woofers for movies?
I also have an RB 1091 (mono version of the 1092) to power the sub or bridge the 1092? plenty of options...
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Well....no offense to the original poster, but we've established that he's got very poorly implemented open baffle subs and wants "bass". Pretty much anything is better than a woofer in free air with no eq, now isn't it?
You've presented here in your post what amounts to a straw man argument. In other words, an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Nobody is going to build a mythical .1 hz tuned subwoofer that I know of.
As I stated before, any practical application of the same woofer in a ported design will beat a sealed design in sensitivity and output, anywhere above tuning frequency. If tuned low enough, it will also be indistinguishable from a sealed design in quality of bass. I personally feel that a large, low tuned ported design can sound just as good as a low Q sealed or infinite baffle or (gasp) dipole.
You are going to continue to fail at open baffle subs if you do not understand how to properly design them. Both the baffle and the EQ are critically important. With OB there is a natural roll off to the bass that must be compensated for by a transform, eq. Trust me, once you do this, your woofers will move quite a bit. The baffle size determines when cancellation starts - larger is better. I personally prefer the u-baffles with a stuffed back, and will convert my dipoles over to that format if I ever get around to it.
Yes are absolutely correct.... it would be virtually impossible for me to get worse bass response than I currently have, considering my lack of baffle / cabinets etc, we are looking at a worse case scenario here.
I have learned a little about OB roll off and how much worse it is than boxed speakers.
I have also learned that low Q speakers also do not work particularly favourably either when it comes to no box or OB in general.
I have learned a very basic understanding of wavelengths and trying to avoid cancelation.
I have learned in a H box the Fs will act as if it was lower and the Q will act as if it was higher (good things to have for OB)
But most of this is useless to me at the moment, because the math to work out the right dimensions for the H box ellude me.
Consequently why I went on to try make a sub box while I wait for the other bits to fall into place and for me to understand the math.
I have learned a little about OB roll off and how much worse it is than boxed speakers.
I have also learned that low Q speakers also do not work particularly favourably either when it comes to no box or OB in general.
I have learned a very basic understanding of wavelengths and trying to avoid cancelation.
I have learned in a H box the Fs will act as if it was lower and the Q will act as if it was higher (good things to have for OB)
But most of this is useless to me at the moment, because the math to work out the right dimensions for the H box ellude me.
Consequently why I went on to try make a sub box while I wait for the other bits to fall into place and for me to understand the math.
Hey. Couple of things. I doubt you or anyone else will ever be putting 300+ volts through the cabinet such as applied in that case. Also there was a rather large " experimental" chunk of wood in the throat to further increase compression which did not have sufficient clearance for the driver cone at full excursion. The cone physically hit this wood addition when supplied the previously mentioned tickle voltage. It had absolutely nothing to do with uneven pressures and everything to do with paper objects at high speed running into other objects. This testing was repeated twice afterwards with the cab as designed in the first place and the extra experimental wood removed and there were no issues. Long story short it is not a concern if the cab is built as designed.
Back to the subject at hand. The 5100 is a nice driver but not very well suited to OB In my opinion. The efficiency means that it will roll off very steeply with a high corner frequency and will require a lot of boost to get any deep bass from it dipole. It is much better suited to horns, band pass and bass reflex.
But from all my sims it doesn't seem particularly suited to deep bass either. The Ultra 5400 seems like a kick butt sub but not the 5100.
I think you're either coming up with poor designs or have highly unrealistic expectations and little personal experience. Define "deep bass". IMHO, you need to pick a proven design with plans and follow it to the letter.
TC Sounds Pro 5100 with Dual 18" VMP Passive Radiators - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
18" PRO5100 NEO TC Sound-7.25 cu.ft.(210 Liters) Tuned to 19.81 hz with 2 PR's - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
TC Sounds PRO 5100 build - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/163904-dubhorn-wis-tc-5100neo-loaded-20hz-horn.html
Sealed: 18" TC Sounds LMS 5400 vs. Pro 5100
"I think you're either coming up with poor designs or..."
Think your right on the money with this... I was wondering how everyone was tuning the boxes to get such low frequencies out of this driver, as I was getting nowhere near it with my sims.
I was using the "Suggestion" button in BBP6 to a large degree to determine the Fb (Fb = roll off point?). Rather than using it to determine where I wanted it to roll off.
Some interesting debate in those links you posted. Pity most of the links resulted in projects never getting finished or changing to other drivers.
But it did yeild some intersting information around the pros and cons of the 5400 vs 5100 debate.
Attached is a quick mockup of the 5100 in a fairly decent sized ported box (port volume excluded from box volume)
Think your right on the money with this... I was wondering how everyone was tuning the boxes to get such low frequencies out of this driver, as I was getting nowhere near it with my sims.
I was using the "Suggestion" button in BBP6 to a large degree to determine the Fb (Fb = roll off point?). Rather than using it to determine where I wanted it to roll off.
Some interesting debate in those links you posted. Pity most of the links resulted in projects never getting finished or changing to other drivers.
But it did yeild some intersting information around the pros and cons of the 5400 vs 5100 debate.
Attached is a quick mockup of the 5100 in a fairly decent sized ported box (port volume excluded from box volume)
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