I have been thinking that perhaps I am not utilising my Tc Sounds Pro 5100 18” drivers to their full effect. Currently I am using them as open baffle woofers, but lately I have been thinking they would be better used in a sub or subs and replace my OB woofers with something cheaper / greater quantity.
Having failed miserably on my first couple of attempts at building a sub, I am open to suggestions on what to do with the two drivers I have.
Thiele/Small Parameters
http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/pro-5100-18-neo-driver/
Having failed miserably on my first couple of attempts at building a sub, I am open to suggestions on what to do with the two drivers I have.
Thiele/Small Parameters
http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/pro-5100-18-neo-driver/
These drivers are of the "Car Audio" variety & won't work well at all for a home application. The two voice-coils are at Two ohms each & would be difficult to drive with a home amp.
These are for the so called 'competitions' for car clubs & events. Perusing thru the T/S parameters......They are really only useful for making that annoying "Bonk, bonk" sound you hear from cars....nothing else.
_______________________________________________________Rick.......
These are for the so called 'competitions' for car clubs & events. Perusing thru the T/S parameters......They are really only useful for making that annoying "Bonk, bonk" sound you hear from cars....nothing else.
_______________________________________________________Rick.......
Umm ok I was under the impression that they were used for PA work and for home theatre going off the reviews.
The 2 + 2 ohms is not a problem because they can be wired in series, and my current amp is driving them at 4ohm with no problems, I just thought it is a bit of overkill to use $2500 drivers for very mild bass in OB.
What people are saying
The 2 + 2 ohms is not a problem because they can be wired in series, and my current amp is driving them at 4ohm with no problems, I just thought it is a bit of overkill to use $2500 drivers for very mild bass in OB.
What people are saying
BRUTAL!
“I bought two of them as my main subwoofer in my home music stereo system and they are totally awesome. They can handle very high low frequency peak even at high output with low distortion and high linearity. BRUTAL!”
Everlouder – CAN
“I bought two of them as my main subwoofer in my home music stereo system and they are totally awesome. They can handle very high low frequency peak even at high output with low distortion and high linearity. BRUTAL!”
Everlouder – CAN
CRAZY!!
“Did I say crazy? I mean pull your underwear up over your head and have some one punch you in the face. This sub is out of this world. I have had some of the best drivers in my place for testing, and this thing kicks all their assess.”
Audio Masters – CA, USA
“Did I say crazy? I mean pull your underwear up over your head and have some one punch you in the face. This sub is out of this world. I have had some of the best drivers in my place for testing, and this thing kicks all their assess.”
Audio Masters – CA, USA
Don't get me wrong...I'm sure they work just fine & dandy for what they were designed for........These are the competition guys you see in the videos...where the vibrations in the cars cause mirrors to fall off...windshield wipers to dance on the windshield.....car roofs to ripple....all fascinating stuff for sure but the ancillary sounds of the car vibrating fully mask anything resembling music.
I'll assume your after bass of the type you'd see like in a movie perhaps.....the life-like sounds of a helicopter, explosions, gunshots.....various motorized vehicles. No, this driver cannot duplicate these effects with any accuracy..........others can. It's kind of like a One-trick-pony.
If you can find a buyer for these, go for it......for the price you(?) mentioned one can build a truly killer system & have lots of $$$ left over.
I have had this discussion over & over with my Brother-in-law.......He seems to think a sub-woofer is just a sub-woofer.....& since the car versions seem way pricey....that those are the best. Matter of fact he presented a "free" 12" "sub-woofer" to me..........It is also of the "competition variety" & I can't use it...it is a single channel (No dual voice coils) so I would need a second driver to match........He was appalled at my attitude. I just can't use it......I listen to music, movies, etc..........not seeing how high I can bounce marbles off my car roof.
____________________________________________________Rick...........
I'll assume your after bass of the type you'd see like in a movie perhaps.....the life-like sounds of a helicopter, explosions, gunshots.....various motorized vehicles. No, this driver cannot duplicate these effects with any accuracy..........others can. It's kind of like a One-trick-pony.
If you can find a buyer for these, go for it......for the price you(?) mentioned one can build a truly killer system & have lots of $$$ left over.
I have had this discussion over & over with my Brother-in-law.......He seems to think a sub-woofer is just a sub-woofer.....& since the car versions seem way pricey....that those are the best. Matter of fact he presented a "free" 12" "sub-woofer" to me..........It is also of the "competition variety" & I can't use it...it is a single channel (No dual voice coils) so I would need a second driver to match........He was appalled at my attitude. I just can't use it......I listen to music, movies, etc..........not seeing how high I can bounce marbles off my car roof.
____________________________________________________Rick...........
Ok thanks for your candid thoughts on them and noted. They seems to be very musical in the current configuration (but the cone barely moves)
The intention was to use them as a sub for home theatre between about ~20Hz and 50Hz. I may just knock up a simple sealed box just to see how they perform in an enclosure.
The purpose of the thread is to work out what is the best box / type / design to have them perform at their best.
Not really into doof doof, and firmly believe cars are not the place for quality audio for the reason you gave, but I have what I have and I will see what I can achieve with what I have first.
The intention was to use them as a sub for home theatre between about ~20Hz and 50Hz. I may just knock up a simple sealed box just to see how they perform in an enclosure.
The purpose of the thread is to work out what is the best box / type / design to have them perform at their best.
Not really into doof doof, and firmly believe cars are not the place for quality audio for the reason you gave, but I have what I have and I will see what I can achieve with what I have first.
Why not? The specs, build details imply otherwise when properly implemented.
The only 'bad' thing I see is that to go low with enough Vb to allow sufficient tuning flexibility will require a 20+ft^3 cab and at least 400-500 W.
GM
Neither of those criteria present an issue... 20 cubic feet works out to be .56 of a cubic meter (56cms) and considering I need ~50cms tall and wide just to fit the driver, the size presents no issues.
As for power I have 1000w available to drive each driver.
Problem I am having is finding a design that works, the only design I can come up with that looks half decent is a ported isobaric push / pull with EQ.
I can't work out how to use Hornresp well enough to consider TH.
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Check this out:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/163904-dubhorn-wis-tc-5100neo-loaded-20hz-horn.html
Edit: It looks like the topic meandered off the 5100, but I'm still reading it.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/163904-dubhorn-wis-tc-5100neo-loaded-20hz-horn.html
Edit: It looks like the topic meandered off the 5100, but I'm still reading it.
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My 26 YO calculator finally crapped out after calculating an EBP of 106..(& I didn't want to do it by hand!).............
If you come up with 20+ cubic feet for a ported design, by all means it should be examined, built, experimented... It's just that....this driver was designed for one purpose, stretching it beyond its' intended purpose will highlight its' weaknesses.....accuracy for one.
I once built a 25 cubic ft enclosure of one inch MDF....it was manageable somewhat, but even with a caster set it wrinkled the WW carpeting.....a pair would have been intolerable given the room size.
I would go for a port of at least ten inches...
______________________________________________________Rick.........
Thanks guys for the suggestions. I am leaning towards some kind of TH if I can work out how to design it properly. I only vaugely know how to use Hornresp, but from what I read and some calculations, I think that would be a better option than a BR cabinet.
GM sorry not overly familiar with all the different box type terminology can you please explain what MLTL stands for, guessing some kind of Transmission Line?
GM sorry not overly familiar with all the different box type terminology can you please explain what MLTL stands for, guessing some kind of Transmission Line?
What these specs really want is a ~3.3 Hz BLH in a concert hall size room, but I guess there's a limit to how big you can tolerate.
A BR alignment assumes that the cab's air mass has a ~uniform particle density, so it doesn't matter where the driver, vent is located since there's no eigenmodes [standing waves] affecting its tuning pass-band.
As one dimension increases enough though, eigenmodes develop, creating a TL, which can be used to damp the vent, so driver, vent location becomes a tuning option. Make it a high enough aspect ratio and it will shorten the vent for a given tuning compared to the same BR alignment and in some cases will shorten the vent enough to require going to a larger area one, so MLTL = mass loaded [vented] transmission line.
GM
A BR alignment assumes that the cab's air mass has a ~uniform particle density, so it doesn't matter where the driver, vent is located since there's no eigenmodes [standing waves] affecting its tuning pass-band.
As one dimension increases enough though, eigenmodes develop, creating a TL, which can be used to damp the vent, so driver, vent location becomes a tuning option. Make it a high enough aspect ratio and it will shorten the vent for a given tuning compared to the same BR alignment and in some cases will shorten the vent enough to require going to a larger area one, so MLTL = mass loaded [vented] transmission line.
GM
These are certainly not a car audio sub. The person who said that is quite incorrect. They are a pro audio neo 18" sub, a pretty typical class of driver. You would not use these in a car except for pure spl applications, and it would still be a marginal choice. These would be right at home in a typical pro audio 2x18" bass bin:
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=gsub
http://forum.speakerplans.com/ported-enclosures_forum33.html
http://forum.speakerplans.com/gsub-build-so-far_topic71740.html
http://forum.speakerplans.com/bc-sub18-build-pics_topic31166_page1.html
Here is something that could be considered a car and home theater sub:
http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/lms-ultra-5400/
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=gsub
http://forum.speakerplans.com/ported-enclosures_forum33.html
http://forum.speakerplans.com/gsub-build-so-far_topic71740.html
http://forum.speakerplans.com/bc-sub18-build-pics_topic31166_page1.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is something that could be considered a car and home theater sub:
http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/lms-ultra-5400/
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+1...These have absolutely nothing to do with what Richard Ellis is saying. 😕
These are in fact some of the finer all around bass drivers on the planet. SQ is excellent, distortion is low, inductance is well controlled, sensitivity is reasonably high, displacement is high, mechanical ruggedness is good and thermal handling is good.
These work very well in medium sized vented cabs tuned between 20-35Hz (Big ports are needed).
They will also work very well in my Othorn tapped horn build if you want crazy headroom 25-100Hz.
Thanks guys some good suggetions there. Both different diections, is there a significant difference in the sound they produce?
Would one lend itself more towards the tonal charactersitcs of open baffle mains speakers more than the other?
Josh I skimmed through the build process, but I notice towards the end where you ran into issues with driver interference, I wonder if something like this might help keep the driver loading even, while still maintaining a high compression ratio?
Wouldn't work with your current box layout, but if I went down the track of TH would it be workable?
Would one lend itself more towards the tonal charactersitcs of open baffle mains speakers more than the other?
Josh I skimmed through the build process, but I notice towards the end where you ran into issues with driver interference, I wonder if something like this might help keep the driver loading even, while still maintaining a high compression ratio?
Wouldn't work with your current box layout, but if I went down the track of TH would it be workable?
Attachments
I can probably help with further refining my requirements...
I would be primarily looking for low as possible Hz out of these drivers, as I want to use them for home theatre use.
These drivers are currently serving as woofers in an OB arrangement, but I am possibly looking to replace each of these drivers (Pro 5100) with 4 of these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-468 in a slot loaded dipole woofer.
Hopefully I will get into lower Hz with the mains, meaning less work for the subs to do.
I would be primarily looking for low as possible Hz out of these drivers, as I want to use them for home theatre use.
These drivers are currently serving as woofers in an OB arrangement, but I am possibly looking to replace each of these drivers (Pro 5100) with 4 of these http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-468 in a slot loaded dipole woofer.
Hopefully I will get into lower Hz with the mains, meaning less work for the subs to do.
Obviously, you should put them in a very large, very low tuned ported box.
Been running some sims in BBP6 using the G Sub specs and it get to a point whereby adding volume doesn't to seem to have an appreciable difference of the results. Have also been exploring the box Josh posted.
Just wondering if I am going to yeild good results out of either of these design until I work out why the driver barely moves.
The consensus was that you have to have big xmax for OB, but my drivers are moving about 1mm which I could have used any old driver and still be safe... so this makes me wonder if I am not mechanically taxing the drivers enough to rule them out as OB drivers just yet.
Perhaps they will go lower and louder in OB if I can workout how to get the cone to move.
Just wondering if I am going to yeild good results out of either of these design until I work out why the driver barely moves.
The consensus was that you have to have big xmax for OB, but my drivers are moving about 1mm which I could have used any old driver and still be safe... so this makes me wonder if I am not mechanically taxing the drivers enough to rule them out as OB drivers just yet.
Perhaps they will go lower and louder in OB if I can workout how to get the cone to move.
Doh! 😉 I was curious why he thought so, but apparently I'm not going to get a straight answer.
GM
Hmm, for the lowest possible Hz for HT requires a large sealed cab, preferably corner loaded, to allow adequate dynamic headroom to EQ it as required. As to how big, it would depend on the room dims. Of course if the room is too big, then its low Xmax might not be enough with some movies.
GM
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