Hi,
I have a pair of Wharfedale Pacific EVO 30 speakers (Bi-Wireable, Nominal 6 Ohm Imp, 50 Hz – 20 kHz, Sens 89 dB – marketing figures, not measured by me) that I’d like to add a pair of super tweeters to. Just to see what happens.
I am happy with the Wharfedales (at the moment) so changing them isn’t a consideration at the moment – but I do fantasize about owning a pair of Elac BS 243’s
I have never heard super tweeters but I have absorbed alot of the conflicting data, science & opinions about whether they should /do work on the high frequency range or whether they affect the whole sound landscape including tightness of bass etc etc.
I can understand and believe the science and data which says our hearing stops at x’000 Hz. I’m 52 but only tested my hearing with an sine wave generator on an iPhone through headphones which came in at around 16k. So, a ST is apparently superfluous. But I can also believe the anecdotal impressions, unsupported by any numerical data whatsoever, which say they definitely do work - but not in every case - only in certain situations with certain speakers - for varying reasons which are (mostly) laudable. Is it harmonic interaction? Is it making up for an existing tweeter deficiency or complete lack of tweeter? Does the whole aural context affect our perception(s) and interpretation of music and frequency content (similar to sight - colour context and perception).
Or is it all of these?
Or is some form of synesthesia involved (so not everyone would be able to enjoy it) e.g. seeing or “knowing” I have the ST’s gives me an inner interaction of actual frequencies giving a perception of extended range and holography – I can’t honestly decide if I’m joking here or not …………
So what do you do? …………. Except dip your toe in the water and try it for yourself.
You can see my speakers aren’t high end so I don’t want to break the bank BUT I would like to try something which will give me a flavour of what super tweeters are about and whether they have any sonic value (to me and my system at least, although you won’t have my system or ears to check). I could also try them on some full range speakers I have the drivers for (Fostex) but haven’t got round to making yet.
Does anyone have any thoughts about what I should try with the Wharfedales? Any other thoughts, data, opinions, suggestions, experiences and musings are welcome too.
Thanks and sorry for the lengthy question.
I have a pair of Wharfedale Pacific EVO 30 speakers (Bi-Wireable, Nominal 6 Ohm Imp, 50 Hz – 20 kHz, Sens 89 dB – marketing figures, not measured by me) that I’d like to add a pair of super tweeters to. Just to see what happens.
I am happy with the Wharfedales (at the moment) so changing them isn’t a consideration at the moment – but I do fantasize about owning a pair of Elac BS 243’s
I have never heard super tweeters but I have absorbed alot of the conflicting data, science & opinions about whether they should /do work on the high frequency range or whether they affect the whole sound landscape including tightness of bass etc etc.
I can understand and believe the science and data which says our hearing stops at x’000 Hz. I’m 52 but only tested my hearing with an sine wave generator on an iPhone through headphones which came in at around 16k. So, a ST is apparently superfluous. But I can also believe the anecdotal impressions, unsupported by any numerical data whatsoever, which say they definitely do work - but not in every case - only in certain situations with certain speakers - for varying reasons which are (mostly) laudable. Is it harmonic interaction? Is it making up for an existing tweeter deficiency or complete lack of tweeter? Does the whole aural context affect our perception(s) and interpretation of music and frequency content (similar to sight - colour context and perception).
Or is it all of these?
Or is some form of synesthesia involved (so not everyone would be able to enjoy it) e.g. seeing or “knowing” I have the ST’s gives me an inner interaction of actual frequencies giving a perception of extended range and holography – I can’t honestly decide if I’m joking here or not …………
So what do you do? …………. Except dip your toe in the water and try it for yourself.
You can see my speakers aren’t high end so I don’t want to break the bank BUT I would like to try something which will give me a flavour of what super tweeters are about and whether they have any sonic value (to me and my system at least, although you won’t have my system or ears to check). I could also try them on some full range speakers I have the drivers for (Fostex) but haven’t got round to making yet.
Does anyone have any thoughts about what I should try with the Wharfedales? Any other thoughts, data, opinions, suggestions, experiences and musings are welcome too.
Thanks and sorry for the lengthy question.
Hi
What is your budget? The cheapest ST that I can think of, is the LCY-K100 Ribbon Super Tweeter at Madisound. You will still need to build your own XO to suit your speakers, though.
Deon
PS. Yes, I do think a ST is a valuable addition to a speaker. IMHO it is worth it to go to all the trouble to design a proper XO.
What is your budget? The cheapest ST that I can think of, is the LCY-K100 Ribbon Super Tweeter at Madisound. You will still need to build your own XO to suit your speakers, though.
Deon
PS. Yes, I do think a ST is a valuable addition to a speaker. IMHO it is worth it to go to all the trouble to design a proper XO.
Thanks Deon,
I haven't gone as far as deciding on a budget yet - but I usually have to wait a little while before my brain persuades my wallet "the price is reasonable". Your crossover comment is interesting, I can weild a soldering iron - built valve amps etc - but electronic design is a black art to me - I Googled the LCY-K100 and the spec looks impressive, I also found the following crossover design -http://www.tradeeasy.com/supplier/193121/selling-leads/1098428/sell-lcy-k100-suggested-crossover-b.html Have you seen it, used it or do you use a bespoke X-over?
I haven't gone as far as deciding on a budget yet - but I usually have to wait a little while before my brain persuades my wallet "the price is reasonable". Your crossover comment is interesting, I can weild a soldering iron - built valve amps etc - but electronic design is a black art to me - I Googled the LCY-K100 and the spec looks impressive, I also found the following crossover design -http://www.tradeeasy.com/supplier/193121/selling-leads/1098428/sell-lcy-k100-suggested-crossover-b.html Have you seen it, used it or do you use a bespoke X-over?
I haven't actually used it, but it looks good. Of course the, IMHO, undisputed king of the hill ITO super tweeters is the RAAL tweeters, especially the amorphous core units, but they are pricey. Everyone that has used them have raved about them. XO design, not my forte, sorry. 🙂
Deon
Deon
small cheap fullrange placed on top playing upwards omni style
but might not be good enough for those fine looking Wharfedales
and could be more trouble than you expect
rather than a super tweeter my first first thought would go to a subwoofer 😀
but might not be good enough for those fine looking Wharfedales
and could be more trouble than you expect
rather than a super tweeter my first first thought would go to a subwoofer 😀
I might suggest a simple experiment before buying. I am of mixed opinion, as a neurologist, I fully understand high frequency hearing loss, but also know that our perceptions exceed our conscious sometimes. So just because we can't "hear" something enough to acknowledge it doesn't mean it isn't "heard" and included in the massive interpolation our brain does in perceiving sound.
Any way, I haven't tried this my self, but if you can use a digital equalizer, just eliminate the 20KHz band entirely and see if it sounds different, you may also try the opposite and increase it, too. If you have no equalizer, you could put a small inductor in series with the highs of your speaker, say 0.05 mh, and see if that is noticeable.
I would argue that if you can't perceive changes trying this, then there is no point to trying a super tweeter and you can save your money. If you do notice a difference, I don't know if a super tweeter will be helpful or not, but at least you know you have some potential to perceive its impact.
I have a BIB with Fostex 208 sigma running full range without xo, with a fountek ribbon crossed 1st at 16000. It should go to 30khz or more they claim. All I know is I have hearing loss above 15khz and can tell that the tweeter helps, by it probably helps some within my hearing range and out o it, so not a rigid test.
Any way, I haven't tried this my self, but if you can use a digital equalizer, just eliminate the 20KHz band entirely and see if it sounds different, you may also try the opposite and increase it, too. If you have no equalizer, you could put a small inductor in series with the highs of your speaker, say 0.05 mh, and see if that is noticeable.
I would argue that if you can't perceive changes trying this, then there is no point to trying a super tweeter and you can save your money. If you do notice a difference, I don't know if a super tweeter will be helpful or not, but at least you know you have some potential to perceive its impact.
I have a BIB with Fostex 208 sigma running full range without xo, with a fountek ribbon crossed 1st at 16000. It should go to 30khz or more they claim. All I know is I have hearing loss above 15khz and can tell that the tweeter helps, by it probably helps some within my hearing range and out o it, so not a rigid test.
Oops, can't edit on the phone, I meant that I would "argue if you CAN'T perceive a difference"...
Thanks for your comments, I should have mentioned that I have a sub woofer unit, didn't think, sorry.
Hi Tinitus, could you explain your thoughts (you won't insult my intelligence by going slowly 🙂) "small cheap fullrange placed on top playing upwards omni style
but might not be good enough for those fine looking Wharfedales
and could be more trouble than you expect"
Are you saying that it may be hard to have a good match with the Wharfedales using anything? I thought the Wharfedales were regarded as ok(ish) but nothing special.
Hi Tinitus, could you explain your thoughts (you won't insult my intelligence by going slowly 🙂) "small cheap fullrange placed on top playing upwards omni style
but might not be good enough for those fine looking Wharfedales
and could be more trouble than you expect"
Are you saying that it may be hard to have a good match with the Wharfedales using anything? I thought the Wharfedales were regarded as ok(ish) but nothing special.
Hi jrenkin, thank you for your input - blimey, this is where it really gets interesting, what happens inside the brain, and the internal modelling of the various data, and not just from ears. Our personal software and hardware, glitches and all. It's fascinating that, as a medical professional, you acknowledge that it's not all about ears. Although I am out of my depth on these matters, intuition leads me in your direction. I don't suppose you have the time to do a study and paper on it? 😱 Your suggestion with the inductor is interesting and should be an easy thing to try. If I wanted to try various inductors, do you know how I would calculate the various inductances? Also, should the inductor be cored or "air"
I have to ask if you are thinking about super tweeters, what is your age? If you are male over 40, forget it. Super tweeters are to add that last bit of sparkle above 15K that cheaper tweeters can't quite do, or above 6 or so for a full range. ( in other words, just a high crossover tweeter. ) Even my exceptional hearing I had when younger (22K) has fallen off quite a lot and I have been very protective of my hearing. Use of ear buds, loud clubs and concerts may mean you just don't hear that high. A super tweeter may not help.
I will let you be the judge of that
on the matter if you can hear a supertweeter at all
first, a supertweeter itself isn't very audible at all, and shouldnt be
part of why its called super tweeter
but you will be able to hear a difference
and its mostly phase related
it could even affect bass perception because this
but you really don't need a special super tweeter to have this effect
any tweeter or small driver will do that
you can try it with a cheap Peerless cone tweeter
And, what is your source material? In almost all music delivery systems there is either no there there (in the "supertweeter" range, depending on how you define that) or what is there is best regarded simply as distortion (typically an artifact of microphone hf resonances).
As for the brain processing what the ear cannot detect . . . oh really? By what magic does that happen?
It has been shown many times we have very poor phase sensitivity. What might be heard is inter-modulation distortion. Just because you hear a difference does not mean it is good. Oops, giving away the secret to selling speaker wires and interconnects 😀
Hi,
Whatever the fors and againsts are for supertweeters, there
are some silly money drivers out there as supertweeters.
This is a DIY site so build your own, its very easy :
Dayton Audio ND20FA-6 3/4" Neodymium Dome Tweeter 275-030
ND20FA-6 - Dayton Neodymium Dome Tweeter 0.75 inch - Europe Audio
They go out past 30KHz with a very smooth and flat response.
rgds, sreten.
Whatever the fors and againsts are for supertweeters, there
are some silly money drivers out there as supertweeters.
This is a DIY site so build your own, its very easy :
Dayton Audio ND20FA-6 3/4" Neodymium Dome Tweeter 275-030
ND20FA-6 - Dayton Neodymium Dome Tweeter 0.75 inch - Europe Audio
They go out past 30KHz with a very smooth and flat response.
rgds, sreten.
Thanks for the suggestion sreten, I'll have a good look at that site in a moment - sit down with a cup of coffee.
Hi dewardh - thanks for your input "As for the brain processing what the ear cannot detect . . . oh really? By what magic does that happen?" .... dunno, but I always keep an open mind on things I don't understand yet and put it all in the pot. I then try to, slice by slice, get to the core of it - a variation on Occam's razor if you like. In the case of a deaf Beethoven, in his latter days, he apparently perceived vibration (limited bandwidth admittedly) through his teeth. So I keep an open mind on such things until I know more. You could be right though. Just need help and pointing in the right direction a little.
Hi dewardh - thanks for your input "As for the brain processing what the ear cannot detect . . . oh really? By what magic does that happen?" .... dunno, but I always keep an open mind on things I don't understand yet and put it all in the pot. I then try to, slice by slice, get to the core of it - a variation on Occam's razor if you like. In the case of a deaf Beethoven, in his latter days, he apparently perceived vibration (limited bandwidth admittedly) through his teeth. So I keep an open mind on such things until I know more. You could be right though. Just need help and pointing in the right direction a little.
I am not suggesting that the brain can process anything that it cannot detect. Just that our coherent and conscious perception of sound, as in that fading 15khz sine wave, is not necessarily all the sound related phenomena our ears may be able to detect. We have many senses, like proprioception, fast moment vision, vestibular responses and so on that are very important an do not reach the level of conscious awareness.
It is always good to keep an open mind. None of know everything about anything, but it is also a good idea to have some general understanding of physics and psycho-acoustics. That way we can spend our money where our ears are and not on snake oil. I have never had to oil a snake.
It turns out, before we can perceive a sound in our brains, we have to hear it. If you look at how the ear works, you will see that we run out of hair bundles that can be excited between 15 and 20K or so depending on our age and how much the fluid in the inner ear has thickened. There is no magic above that. Now, back to physics, higher frequencies can cause inter-modulation with lower frequencies producing even lower and audible frequencies we do hear. That is called distortion by the way.
The Dayton tweeters are pretty well respected. If your midrange could get up to 4K or so, then a pretty good choice. Tha advantage if a tweeter like this is the breakup modes are way the heck up out of the way and if we can get the crossover up top 4 or 5K, it is out of our most critical and sensitive range. Many think this is a good thing. We are also not working it very hard, so the distortion will be less. The trick is a mid that can get there. One way is a larger, like the inch and a quarter Dayton tweeter so it can reach down to 1.5K or so and then cross it over to the 3/4 at 6K or so.
It turns out, before we can perceive a sound in our brains, we have to hear it. If you look at how the ear works, you will see that we run out of hair bundles that can be excited between 15 and 20K or so depending on our age and how much the fluid in the inner ear has thickened. There is no magic above that. Now, back to physics, higher frequencies can cause inter-modulation with lower frequencies producing even lower and audible frequencies we do hear. That is called distortion by the way.
The Dayton tweeters are pretty well respected. If your midrange could get up to 4K or so, then a pretty good choice. Tha advantage if a tweeter like this is the breakup modes are way the heck up out of the way and if we can get the crossover up top 4 or 5K, it is out of our most critical and sensitive range. Many think this is a good thing. We are also not working it very hard, so the distortion will be less. The trick is a mid that can get there. One way is a larger, like the inch and a quarter Dayton tweeter so it can reach down to 1.5K or so and then cross it over to the 3/4 at 6K or so.
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