I can get some Vifa P17WJ-00-08 on sale, and was wondering if any of you have used it. I'm not sure of what tweeters to go for. I would like to keep the crossover simple, preferrably 1st order. Would the D27TG-35-06 be a good candidate? Can the XT25 survive such a filter? The BG Neo3PBR also looks interesting, any comments? Also, what kind of enclosure would You suggest?
Many thanks!
Many thanks!
This may help a bit 🙂
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd200_johnk.shtml
edit: Vifa normally shows what xover freq and order is necessary for nominal power handling, but I couldn't see it for the d27, I'm guessing that while 1st order may sound ok, your power handling could be quite limited.
Tony.
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd200_johnk.shtml
edit: Vifa normally shows what xover freq and order is necessary for nominal power handling, but I couldn't see it for the d27, I'm guessing that while 1st order may sound ok, your power handling could be quite limited.
Tony.
If you're a relative newbie, I wouldn't recommend using the Vifa XT25 tweeter; it requires a fairly complex crossover to get the best out of it--some have even tried series crossovers. But if you can get it to work at its best, I think you won't be disappointed.
I suggest you consider some of the popular Seas aluminum domes that have gotten consistently good reviews.
I suggest you consider some of the popular Seas aluminum domes that have gotten consistently good reviews.
1st order filters only work well with relatively obscure
drivers designed to be used in that configuration.
Most tweeters are not designed for 1st order
filters unless the frequency is higher than usual.
You can find loads of info on the Vifa P17 by searching.
Just copy one of the designs.
you could do a lot worse than this :
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/Eros Project/erosmk2.htm
🙂 sreten.
drivers designed to be used in that configuration.
Most tweeters are not designed for 1st order
filters unless the frequency is higher than usual.
You can find loads of info on the Vifa P17 by searching.
Just copy one of the designs.
you could do a lot worse than this :
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/Eros Project/erosmk2.htm
🙂 sreten.
Morel MDT-12 works for me.
I don't know if this qualifies as obscure, but I think the price is very decent at $24. I have it crossed over at 3200Hz with a single capacitor, it has no complaints and sounds great. It also has a nice small flange, only 54mm - though it's square. I am pretty sure I've read that many of the Morel tweeters (as with Dynaudio in years past) were designed with first order filters in mind. Worth a check at least.
Aaron Gilbert
I don't know if this qualifies as obscure, but I think the price is very decent at $24. I have it crossed over at 3200Hz with a single capacitor, it has no complaints and sounds great. It also has a nice small flange, only 54mm - though it's square. I am pretty sure I've read that many of the Morel tweeters (as with Dynaudio in years past) were designed with first order filters in mind. Worth a check at least.
Aaron Gilbert
Re: Morel MDT-12 works for me.
I've chatted with the Australian distributor about morel DMS37 tweeters and he said they were suitable for 1st order crossovers. I'm thinking of doing 1st order on my next project with DMS37 tweeters and morel MW-144 mid-bass units.
The DMS37 is designed such that if it is flush mounted and the MW-144's are surface mounted, the drivers are time aligned.
Tony.
aaroncgi said:
I've chatted with the Australian distributor about morel DMS37 tweeters and he said they were suitable for 1st order crossovers. I'm thinking of doing 1st order on my next project with DMS37 tweeters and morel MW-144 mid-bass units.
The DMS37 is designed such that if it is flush mounted and the MW-144's are surface mounted, the drivers are time aligned.
Tony.
SEAS 27TDFC and 27TDC
Seas 27TDFC is worth considering. $27-$29
The Seas 27TDC does not have ferrofluid. When crossed with 2nd order or higher at 3KHz or higher it can safely deliver a delicate, detailed top end with great air. Wonderful for quartets and soprano overtones. Some listeners say it sounds a little thin.
The Seas 27TDFC has ferrofluid, a 90 watt power rating, and a 550Hz Fs. Usable with LR4 at 1,200Hz. A rich, full sounding tweeter, good for big symphonies and punchy rock guitar.
Both have a modest SPL drop starting at 16Khz.
Seas 27TDFC is worth considering. $27-$29
The Seas 27TDC does not have ferrofluid. When crossed with 2nd order or higher at 3KHz or higher it can safely deliver a delicate, detailed top end with great air. Wonderful for quartets and soprano overtones. Some listeners say it sounds a little thin.
The Seas 27TDFC has ferrofluid, a 90 watt power rating, and a 550Hz Fs. Usable with LR4 at 1,200Hz. A rich, full sounding tweeter, good for big symphonies and punchy rock guitar.
Both have a modest SPL drop starting at 16Khz.
I'm a horn, tube amp and VMOS amp enthusiast - so this recommendation may not suit your needs. I like the JBL pro line "cheek" tweeter. It has a nice bi-radial, constant directivity horn with very good dispersion.
Rather than starting a new thread thought I would revive this discussion to see what the vews are in 2020 for tweeters suitable for use with first order filters.
A brief bit of reserch indicates that Morel still make several tweeters that could work with a first order filter?
A brief bit of reserch indicates that Morel still make several tweeters that could work with a first order filter?
You may find Michael Chua's ideas interesting on this topic:
MOREL CAT 378 Soft Dome Horn Tweeter – AmpsLab
Finch (Morel CAT378 + Vifa PL18W0-09-08) – AmpsLab
Horn loaded with Fs correction. I got 1mH/10R/47uF, he got something similar. Idea is you get close to a perfect LR2. Quite suitable for those flat old Vifa PL18WO and P17WJ 6" woofers.
My circuit for the CAT 378 came out like this:
Joachim Gerhard rates the H1499-06 27TBCD/GB-DXT highly on simple capacitor too.
Horn loaded helps because excursion is less. Mike did a bit of simple frequency response adjustment on the CAT 378 too. Just lifted the top a bit.
MOREL CAT 378 Soft Dome Horn Tweeter – AmpsLab
Finch (Morel CAT378 + Vifa PL18W0-09-08) – AmpsLab
Horn loaded with Fs correction. I got 1mH/10R/47uF, he got something similar. Idea is you get close to a perfect LR2. Quite suitable for those flat old Vifa PL18WO and P17WJ 6" woofers.
My circuit for the CAT 378 came out like this:
Joachim Gerhard rates the H1499-06 27TBCD/GB-DXT highly on simple capacitor too.
Horn loaded helps because excursion is less. Mike did a bit of simple frequency response adjustment on the CAT 378 too. Just lifted the top a bit.
Last edited:
I must order a pair. Very versatile, albeit 94mm size:
Works in a 5" too:
Ergo IX 2-way DIY speaker kit | KJF Audio
You could tune it by ear very easily, IMO.
These Markaudio Alpair 5 fullragers are of interest too:
Alpair 5 full range driver | KJF Audio
Planet10 reckons they are good. But need a little 1L enclosure.
Works in a 5" too:
Ergo IX 2-way DIY speaker kit | KJF Audio
You could tune it by ear very easily, IMO.
These Markaudio Alpair 5 fullragers are of interest too:
Alpair 5 full range driver | KJF Audio
Planet10 reckons they are good. But need a little 1L enclosure.
My experience tells me all tweeters can be used with 1st order filters, even series ones, if a few simple rules are followed:
- cross it minimum 2 octaves above its Fs.
that means a 1.1 kHz tweeter need to be crossed over at around 4.4 kHz
or, a 500 Hz tweeter can be crossed at 2 kHz
these are not exact figures and every tweeter is different, but you get the idea.
- fit a waveguide, it will reduce the excursion at the low end of its response and reduce distortion big time.
also will let you cross it over at lower frequency if that's what you need.
I have to admit I prefer and only use 1st order, and most of the time series, so I'm very biased.
If we go back to OP's first post, he wanted to use a Vifa P17 mid-woofer.
It's from the same family as P11, P13 polycone drivers by Vifa in the past and now Scan Speak.
Very smooth and natural top end roll off. Can be easily used full range with no crossover of any kind and the tweeter crossed with a single cap and maybe a padding resistor at around 4 - 5 kHz.
Which means it will be easy to find a suitable tweeter.
And one such tweeter is any of the H25, H26 family of Vifa tweeters, and now again Scan Speak.
I am doing something similar with Vifa P11 and H26tg35, P11 is full range, H26 is cut at around 6 kHz with a cap and a resistor (I know H26 is an overkill in this application, but I have a few of these and like them very much).
Very natural, detailed sound, very smooth impedance and freq. response, even off-axis, as measured with LIMP and ARTA (and my ears of course).
Very easy to drive also, currently connected to a MoFo amp.
Just my 2c.
- cross it minimum 2 octaves above its Fs.
that means a 1.1 kHz tweeter need to be crossed over at around 4.4 kHz
or, a 500 Hz tweeter can be crossed at 2 kHz
these are not exact figures and every tweeter is different, but you get the idea.
- fit a waveguide, it will reduce the excursion at the low end of its response and reduce distortion big time.
also will let you cross it over at lower frequency if that's what you need.
I have to admit I prefer and only use 1st order, and most of the time series, so I'm very biased.
If we go back to OP's first post, he wanted to use a Vifa P17 mid-woofer.
It's from the same family as P11, P13 polycone drivers by Vifa in the past and now Scan Speak.
Very smooth and natural top end roll off. Can be easily used full range with no crossover of any kind and the tweeter crossed with a single cap and maybe a padding resistor at around 4 - 5 kHz.
Which means it will be easy to find a suitable tweeter.
And one such tweeter is any of the H25, H26 family of Vifa tweeters, and now again Scan Speak.
I am doing something similar with Vifa P11 and H26tg35, P11 is full range, H26 is cut at around 6 kHz with a cap and a resistor (I know H26 is an overkill in this application, but I have a few of these and like them very much).
Very natural, detailed sound, very smooth impedance and freq. response, even off-axis, as measured with LIMP and ARTA (and my ears of course).
Very easy to drive also, currently connected to a MoFo amp.
Just my 2c.
I built some small towers with the P17 and Monacor DT300 tweeter. Although I would not recommend the tweeter, I liked the P17. Very easy to work with and sounds nice I only used a coil and a small notch on the P17 to straighten the slope).
My suggestion would be a waveguided tweeter with the P17, and low order (1st electrical maybe) XO. I have the Peerless XT tweeter (double magnet and large back chamber version) in WG300 waveguide (Test Peerless XT25TG-30 / 04 at Waveguide WG-300) in another DIY speaker (vifa C17), and that works really well, so just add the WG to your XT25 and build it. Time alignment should be close to perfect with that too.
My suggestion would be a waveguided tweeter with the P17, and low order (1st electrical maybe) XO. I have the Peerless XT tweeter (double magnet and large back chamber version) in WG300 waveguide (Test Peerless XT25TG-30 / 04 at Waveguide WG-300) in another DIY speaker (vifa C17), and that works really well, so just add the WG to your XT25 and build it. Time alignment should be close to perfect with that too.
Try this design with the D27 for any enclosure about 9 to 10” wide and 12-15” high. Change the series resistor from 2,7 to 3,9R if you think the highs are a bit loud. Dated maybe, but still a very well voiced design. The 17WP200 is just another brand name for your pick, the Vifa metal and fabric domes are exchangeable.
Choosing a tweeter really depends on MANY things, not just price. What are the design goals for your loudspeaker?
This is useful: So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!
Naaah. It's the other way round. Most drivers are not designed for a particular xover topology (ok, there may be one or two very obscure designs out there, but I can't think of any).
I also have some H25 and H26 Vifa/Peerless/Tymphany horn tweeters. For the money they sound pretty good. Because they have such high output; they can be padded down by as much as 10 dB or more. This adds a safety factor for the tweeter so you could use them with a single cap if you wish (depends on how low you want to X/O obviously). They also have fairly high power ratings. In my applications; I am using them with a 2nd order high pass but that is mostly so I can get extra SPL's starting at about 8 KHz. For my mid 60's hearing; I need a "boost" of at least 10 dB from 10 KHz and up. Beyond 15 KHz; forget it. I wouldn't hear it if it was 20 dB louder than my mids or mid-bass! I have also used a few Morel and Dynaudio dome mids and tweeters in the past. Most of these tweeters can do a 1st order HP no worries UNLESS the X/O frequency is ridiculously low!
read somewhere the Vifa h26 is fantastic... or the late Vifa 26... don't remember ?!
What about this one with first order and relativly high XO crossing : the classic ex Peerless SS Discovery 2604/833000 : https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2604-833000.pdf : nice roll off in the low end ?
What about this one with first order and relativly high XO crossing : the classic ex Peerless SS Discovery 2604/833000 : https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2604-833000.pdf : nice roll off in the low end ?