Hello Guys,
I'm just starting to get into recording music I make. I've been a musician my whole life and am finally putting my thoughts to track. I've been starting by monitoring using headphones the whole time, but it has its limitations. Me and my girlfriend were mixing together and it was a constant passing of the headphones back and forth; also the limitation of the length of the cord.
So I'm in the market to finally buy some monitors. For obvious reasons I'd prefer a good-clean-neutral-ish response. I've been doing a lot of research and I'm not getting that far. I'm not willing to spend more money than my whole set up is right now. I'm curious about a few things:
TL;DR: Questions to be answered.
Welch174
I'm just starting to get into recording music I make. I've been a musician my whole life and am finally putting my thoughts to track. I've been starting by monitoring using headphones the whole time, but it has its limitations. Me and my girlfriend were mixing together and it was a constant passing of the headphones back and forth; also the limitation of the length of the cord.
So I'm in the market to finally buy some monitors. For obvious reasons I'd prefer a good-clean-neutral-ish response. I've been doing a lot of research and I'm not getting that far. I'm not willing to spend more money than my whole set up is right now. I'm curious about a few things:
TL;DR: Questions to be answered.
What kind of speakers do I get at varying price ranges(assume the prices I list are for pairs). Let's say $200, $400, $600.
What are the type of speakers I can use? I don't really have a space limitations. Is it possible to get a neutral response using a floor standing set up? Does that work well for recording?
I started as a bass player, so I NEED to get that low E clean and crisp. That's 40HZ, boys. Is that possible with two speakers and still maintain neutrality? Is it better to get a sub-woofer and a couple of higher response speakers?
I'm open to commercial and diy opinions. If I'm doing it myself I would like to not break the bank on components(~$350); but still I'd like to know how the price ranges compare with monitors.
Thank you very much,What are the type of speakers I can use? I don't really have a space limitations. Is it possible to get a neutral response using a floor standing set up? Does that work well for recording?
I started as a bass player, so I NEED to get that low E clean and crisp. That's 40HZ, boys. Is that possible with two speakers and still maintain neutrality? Is it better to get a sub-woofer and a couple of higher response speakers?
I'm open to commercial and diy opinions. If I'm doing it myself I would like to not break the bank on components(~$350); but still I'd like to know how the price ranges compare with monitors.
Welch174
Hi,
The niavety of the question beggars attempting a sensible answer.
You need a reference music playback system you can compare to.
Normal listening environment and normal listening distances.
Nearfield monitors are simply the best that suggest to you what
a reference quality music playback system will sound like, here
headphones are useless (IMO), and the nearfields are not the
reference, e.g. you may mix lean on them for a fatter reference.
Its not something you can simply tell people when it comes to
recording, but the simple fact is the reference is a flat response.
Which is different nearfield and farfield. High quality / high resolving
systems simply need well balanced recordings, nothing more.
You don't need to be able to hear the finer details of the really
good kit, the point is not to to mix to a poor frequency balance.
rgds, sreten.
Here is a good place to start : Zaph|Audio
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder
The niavety of the question beggars attempting a sensible answer.
You need a reference music playback system you can compare to.
Normal listening environment and normal listening distances.
Nearfield monitors are simply the best that suggest to you what
a reference quality music playback system will sound like, here
headphones are useless (IMO), and the nearfields are not the
reference, e.g. you may mix lean on them for a fatter reference.
Its not something you can simply tell people when it comes to
recording, but the simple fact is the reference is a flat response.
Which is different nearfield and farfield. High quality / high resolving
systems simply need well balanced recordings, nothing more.
You don't need to be able to hear the finer details of the really
good kit, the point is not to to mix to a poor frequency balance.
rgds, sreten.
Here is a good place to start : Zaph|Audio
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder
Where to start?
welch174: sreten's list is extensive and includes many of the same links I would suggest. Although I don't disagree with sreten (we have a little history disagreeing, but nothing that reasonable people can't resolve), I believe as the BBC does: a small monitor (or large) with an essentially accurate and well behaved midrange.
I must digress regarding headphones. Even Linkwitz himself has used headphones for some of his mobile recordings.
Regarding the rest of the system (assuming one has access to a respectable sounding home system), as long as the system is good sounding and well balanced, that's good enough. This is without trying to be pretentious at all. Respectable or good sounding need not be expensive.
What do you get for your money if DIY? $200-$300 can get you a lot. I would seriously consider a nice set of planet10's eN-modified Mark Audio fullrangers (no crossover, easy to drive), using one of his designs for a particular driver. The "Onken" style enclosures do play quite low (into the mid to high 30Hz range) and have a very clean sound (Dave designed and offers flat-packs of the listed frugalhorns as well). I'd suggest that even the unmodified drivers would sound good in the correct enclosures (which has been a slight source of disagreement between myself and sreten, I'm "pro"-modified, sreten is "con" modified driver).
Hope it helps. You have a lot of reading to do...
welch174: sreten's list is extensive and includes many of the same links I would suggest. Although I don't disagree with sreten (we have a little history disagreeing, but nothing that reasonable people can't resolve), I believe as the BBC does: a small monitor (or large) with an essentially accurate and well behaved midrange.
I must digress regarding headphones. Even Linkwitz himself has used headphones for some of his mobile recordings.
Regarding the rest of the system (assuming one has access to a respectable sounding home system), as long as the system is good sounding and well balanced, that's good enough. This is without trying to be pretentious at all. Respectable or good sounding need not be expensive.
What do you get for your money if DIY? $200-$300 can get you a lot. I would seriously consider a nice set of planet10's eN-modified Mark Audio fullrangers (no crossover, easy to drive), using one of his designs for a particular driver. The "Onken" style enclosures do play quite low (into the mid to high 30Hz range) and have a very clean sound (Dave designed and offers flat-packs of the listed frugalhorns as well). I'd suggest that even the unmodified drivers would sound good in the correct enclosures (which has been a slight source of disagreement between myself and sreten, I'm "pro"-modified, sreten is "con" modified driver).
Hope it helps. You have a lot of reading to do...
re: what kind of speakers - if mixing near field (on your computer desk) a small 6" or 8" 2way, if you have the space and want to use them for general listening as well, floorstanders
re: 'so I NEED to get that low E' - actually, I doubt that you do, it's more important that mixing speakers let you hear the relative balance between instruments, and detail of what's happening in the music, so a good neutral midrange is more important. So drivers with stiffer cones, e.g. metal or say SEAS ER series are called for.
I wouldn't use a 'full range' driver in this application, they are too compromised (it's only an aspirational title anyway....)
re: 'so I NEED to get that low E' - actually, I doubt that you do, it's more important that mixing speakers let you hear the relative balance between instruments, and detail of what's happening in the music, so a good neutral midrange is more important. So drivers with stiffer cones, e.g. metal or say SEAS ER series are called for.
I wouldn't use a 'full range' driver in this application, they are too compromised (it's only an aspirational title anyway....)
these would be good (although I'd put them in a slightly larger box to improve the low end): The Seas ER18DXT ported two way
Normally I would agree with PeterMcK had I not had experience with the Onkens. They are not typical a fullrange design with very good bass extension and very good HF extension, but a complicated cabinet.
The two way designs suggested all seem like reasonable choices. The key is a well balanced design.
I know you want us to reccomend 'just' a monitor for your mixing and monitoring needs, but down the line you need to be aware a couple issues with them.
Firs your assumption that a bass guitar needs to be monitored to 40Hz flat is not entirely correct. Most of the energy is in the harmonics, the fundamental could be almost 10-15dB down.
Second, when you introduce a speaker to your workflow, its output is influenced by nearby boundaries and the low frequencies are entirely dominated by the room, unlike your headphones. So to correctly mix, you need a flat in-room response at the modal region in your monitoring position in addition to avoiding early reflection from nearby surfaces. So forget about placing them on the desk - there are much better solutions available. Unless of-course you like to run around and check your mix on every crappy system you find nearby (NS10-s 😀). Or you could concentrate on mixing a great product and be confident that it translates almost everywhere.
Third, your mix balance will depend on the loudness of your monitoring, be aware of this! You could consider implementing a reference monitoring level. Also double check at lower and higher volumes, but tonality changes due to listening level should be left to the playback end - ie. Dolby 'modeler' and Audyssey dynamic EQ.
(I could rant for ages about the current situation in music production, movie sound production standards are and will be light years ahead, especially with the emerging object-based production)
So - a sketchup of your room, couple pictures and a list of your (measuring)equipment goes a long way getting meaningful suggestions for your situation.
Firs your assumption that a bass guitar needs to be monitored to 40Hz flat is not entirely correct. Most of the energy is in the harmonics, the fundamental could be almost 10-15dB down.
Second, when you introduce a speaker to your workflow, its output is influenced by nearby boundaries and the low frequencies are entirely dominated by the room, unlike your headphones. So to correctly mix, you need a flat in-room response at the modal region in your monitoring position in addition to avoiding early reflection from nearby surfaces. So forget about placing them on the desk - there are much better solutions available. Unless of-course you like to run around and check your mix on every crappy system you find nearby (NS10-s 😀). Or you could concentrate on mixing a great product and be confident that it translates almost everywhere.
Third, your mix balance will depend on the loudness of your monitoring, be aware of this! You could consider implementing a reference monitoring level. Also double check at lower and higher volumes, but tonality changes due to listening level should be left to the playback end - ie. Dolby 'modeler' and Audyssey dynamic EQ.
(I could rant for ages about the current situation in music production, movie sound production standards are and will be light years ahead, especially with the emerging object-based production)
So - a sketchup of your room, couple pictures and a list of your (measuring)equipment goes a long way getting meaningful suggestions for your situation.
Hi,
I'm not against the modified drivers, I'm against overrating them.
And against such blanket statements as the one given above regarding
the Onkens which reads more like marketing hype than useful inforrmation.
They are typical of the full range breed rather than atypical. Without
specifying a driver you claim "very good" bass and HF extension,
that is nonsense. Without specifying a size you claim 30Hz bass ....
(Your claimed 40Hz bass is my 80Hz in reality : re 8" AN FR)
There is nothing special about Onkens at all, they are just vented
cabinets with higher than normal port damping and usually stiff
side walls due to the Onken construction of the ports.
They are highly unlikely to be flat, and don't have "very good"
extension either end, even if you add the caveat for a FR.
Such devices have no place in the recording process.
They may be used for checking final mixing, but that only,
as most studios try final mixes through different speakers.
This is flat :
Zaph|Audio - ZMV5 - MCM / Vifa 5" System
It has accurate good treble extension, for studio use I'd tune
the bass down to 40Hz, accept that a real 40Hz is going to
be its limits (unless you add a subwoofer), and note that
its real bass accuracy will better any unequalised FR driver,
but will still be inevitably limited without a good subwoofer.
It has remarkably good performance for its price, if you can
see past Zaph's tendency to judge his budget designs by
absolute terms. You can't go wrong building it for the price.
(But there are quite a few other good choices, YMMV.)
You can build a decent farfield system and use it nearfield
with some slight bass cut on the final feed to the monitors.
You can build dedicated separate nearfield and far field speakers.
You can add other speaker types, e.g. a decent MP3 boombox,
basic AV speakers, whatever takes your fancy, for mix checking.
rgds, sreten.
Use of headphones for mobile recordings is of course "monitoring"
and a very sensible choice in that context, but I'd never use them
in a home recording context beyond the other options not worth
thinking about, i.e. they are your only decent quality choice.
If so used, I'd consider adding a couple of circuits that make
headphones more similar to stereo listening, but that is pretty
much off-topic in this thread, there is no need to go there.
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NS-10's are the basic standard.
I was going to get a set until I heard the KRK-6000's when they first came out.
I think we paid $638 our pair.
They had a concave Focal tweeter and the woofer was either Seas or Focal I don't remember right now.
You can Google it and find the info.
They were very flat and solid when it came to bass and drums.
Not at all boomy, not even in the slightest.
When there was bass, there was bass!!
The Imaging was far better than the NS-10's and about Half of the cost of the Tannoy Gold Series 8's that I was going to get.
I have also used the Mackie monitors as well as the Alesis monitors and the KRK's always sounded better to me.
They never failed me on a mix down even after listening to the material on every thing I could find, from Boomboxes to house and car stereo's.
http://www.krksys.com/documents/6000_spec_sheet.pdf
Even on ebay the still go for nearly what I paid for mine in 1994,
PAIR OF KRK 6000 SPEAKERS STUDIO MONITORS 8 OHMS 009487 | eBay
They are great monitors and we did abuse them quite a bit and never had a failure, In fact the are still working today and still sound great !!!!
I used to even run my bass through the mixer and practiced on them, they never sounded bad and was always clean and natural sounding at any power level, as it took quite a lot to make them bottom out.
We used an Alesis RA-100 amp on them and they are still paired with that very same amp today.
http://www.cpcomms.com/mfr/gear/Alesis/RA100_Manual.pdf
If you do decide to get a pair you won't be sorry, and if you can find a pair just to listen too, Please do so and you will see first hand as to what I am trying to say.
They are just superb little speakers!!!
FWIW
Good Luck!!!
jer 🙂
I was going to get a set until I heard the KRK-6000's when they first came out.
I think we paid $638 our pair.
They had a concave Focal tweeter and the woofer was either Seas or Focal I don't remember right now.
You can Google it and find the info.
They were very flat and solid when it came to bass and drums.
Not at all boomy, not even in the slightest.
When there was bass, there was bass!!
The Imaging was far better than the NS-10's and about Half of the cost of the Tannoy Gold Series 8's that I was going to get.
I have also used the Mackie monitors as well as the Alesis monitors and the KRK's always sounded better to me.
They never failed me on a mix down even after listening to the material on every thing I could find, from Boomboxes to house and car stereo's.
http://www.krksys.com/documents/6000_spec_sheet.pdf
Even on ebay the still go for nearly what I paid for mine in 1994,
PAIR OF KRK 6000 SPEAKERS STUDIO MONITORS 8 OHMS 009487 | eBay
They are great monitors and we did abuse them quite a bit and never had a failure, In fact the are still working today and still sound great !!!!
I used to even run my bass through the mixer and practiced on them, they never sounded bad and was always clean and natural sounding at any power level, as it took quite a lot to make them bottom out.
We used an Alesis RA-100 amp on them and they are still paired with that very same amp today.
http://www.cpcomms.com/mfr/gear/Alesis/RA100_Manual.pdf
If you do decide to get a pair you won't be sorry, and if you can find a pair just to listen too, Please do so and you will see first hand as to what I am trying to say.
They are just superb little speakers!!!
FWIW
Good Luck!!!
jer 🙂
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I use theses ones , bought used for 250/300 euros.
Sound is correct , far better than the dreaded and ubiquitous NS10.
An old school hifi amp that do at least 2 X 50W RMS is enough
to drive them efficently.
Monitoring systems - studio speakers. Welcome to the world of QUESTED
Sound is correct , far better than the dreaded and ubiquitous NS10.
An old school hifi amp that do at least 2 X 50W RMS is enough
to drive them efficently.
Monitoring systems - studio speakers. Welcome to the world of QUESTED
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Hi,
No they are not. They are awful speakers to use as recording monitors.
They are the "fashionable" speaker (if your stuck in the dark ages) to
check final mixes with, and believe the fallacy, "if the mix sounds good
through NS10's, it will sound good on anything", that is a trite myth.
Almost anything half decent will make better recording monitors.
rgds, sreten.
If I had around $350 burning a hole in my pocket and fancied DIY
I'd build these : https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
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They would make a decent quality reference system with real bass.
Or possibly just buy these : http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB3030A
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As good a fully active starting point as your going to get for $350.
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Ohh, I agree, sreten, That was just someting I was told when I was shopping for some monitors and was told that almost every studio had a pair and I read all of the reviews I could find on the NS-10's.
But when I actually heard a pair I instantly thought that they sucked and could not figure out what all of the hype was about!!!
I never got a pair and nor would I waste my money on them even if they were free!!!
They just sounded Blah and the imaging was nil, Very bad indeed!!
jer 🙂
But when I actually heard a pair I instantly thought that they sucked and could not figure out what all of the hype was about!!!
I never got a pair and nor would I waste my money on them even if they were free!!!
They just sounded Blah and the imaging was nil, Very bad indeed!!
jer 🙂
I do agree that NS10s are hideous to listen to and personally I have never managed to get a decent mix through them.
However ears differ and I know many engineers who absolutely swear by them AND produce excellent mixes using NS10s, so much so that since they have been discontinued by Yamaha the s/h price for them far outstrips what they cost new.
They also seem to be quite choosy on the amp which drives them and the amps of choice appear to be Brystons but that pushes the price to well beyond the £2000 mark.
And despite (sadly IMV) being the de facto standard studio monitor one still needs a pair of decent full-range main monitors as on their own they are quite useless due to the missing bottom 1.5 octaves.
However ears differ and I know many engineers who absolutely swear by them AND produce excellent mixes using NS10s, so much so that since they have been discontinued by Yamaha the s/h price for them far outstrips what they cost new.
They also seem to be quite choosy on the amp which drives them and the amps of choice appear to be Brystons but that pushes the price to well beyond the £2000 mark.
And despite (sadly IMV) being the de facto standard studio monitor one still needs a pair of decent full-range main monitors as on their own they are quite useless due to the missing bottom 1.5 octaves.
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