Something that could be said about many (if not most) full range loudspeakers.
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Joined 2009
I use it as a midrange in a 3-way. It's an excellent driver and I think a great choice for a FAST system. I did some tests where I removed the tweeter and ran the speaker as a 2-way. There was very small difference in sound although I did prefer the 3-way version.
It's a great midrange or a fullrange but it does need a woofer, it struggles below 200Hz. Some filtering on the high end helps as well.
It's a great midrange or a fullrange but it does need a woofer, it struggles below 200Hz. Some filtering on the high end helps as well.
fair enough, but take a closer look at measured off axis response of the 10F and, say Alpair 10.2 above 5kHz, and keep in mind that the particular subset of DIYers frequenting this forum are well prepared for working with/around their chosen drivers' limitations
My point is not bash full range loudspeakers. I have a handful of different 3-5” full rangers laying around, including the Scan-speak 10f, some fostex drivers and some other cheaper units as well.
Just to illustrate my point, have a look at the spec. sheet of the Fostex FF225WK. There is nothing full range about that driver. This driver may be a good driver for a two-way, but certainly not as a full ranger. Despite its limited HF output, it is still marked as a full range speaker.
Another issue that I have noticed is that people often let them self get fooled by the published specs. An often used “trick” is to compress the scale of the frequency response to such an extend that a 10-15 db peak is nothing more than a small “blip” on an otherwise strait line. This is typical for many producers of so-called full range loudspeakers (Fostex, Tangband, Markaudio ect.). On the other hand, companies like Seas, Scan-speak and a handful of other serious producers of drivers do not do this. So, please feel free to have another look at the curves of the 10f and then compare to many other 3-4” full rangers out there.
In regards to the Markaudio drivers, I have no idea about how their drivers perform off-axis. First, I looked at the Markaudio webpage. No information about their drivers there. I then looked at the Madisound speaker store webpage to find some info. Again, no off-axis measurements.
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agreed
- agreed - except for the implication that you have access to a secret list of those who don't commit this misdirection, something with which some manufacturers (Mr Fenlon certainly among them) might like to discuss
further, in over 40 years of listening I've experienced enough cognitive dissonance attempting to reconcile published specs / printed reviews or anything that might be construed as "propaganda" for any audio component to what I actually hear that I've developed what I consider a healthy agnosticism for them - interesting reading, but prove /guarantee nothing
notwithstanding my previous sentence, how do you know that I've not done so? (including most Fostex, several TB & Founteks, etc.) - but back on topic - if it's fair to discuss how other manufacturers might intentionally mislead or innocently obfuscate, I'd repeat my earlier point of how ScanSpeak's own website lists the 10F as a midrange unit, while the spec sheet for same is headed with "Fullrange"
In full disclosure, I've not heard these, and they might very well be wonderful, but I can't help but imagine that the off-axis response of upper most octaves would be "soft", compared to some of the Alpairs, Fostex, Fountek, TB that I have heard.
Actually, there measurements for most of the Mark Audio drivers readily available on PDFs from his site - if interested you could take a look at the Alpair6M and Alpair10.2 . These are LMS RAW data, and include 0/ 15 & 30deg off axis response.
edit: apologies for the rant, off my meds today perhaps?
Hi Chrisb
Please don’t get me wrong. I am quite sure that you and many others on the forum knows a thing or two about loudspeaker building. But I can help myself when I read comments like “It's a mid” and “it's for midrange duty only”. Please buy the speakers, put them in some well designed boxes, and then report back about their sonic qualities (much in the same fashion as boris81 did above). Then we may be able to determine if it is a mid or not.
My experience with the 10f is that it offers something slightly different than the typical drivers from Fostex or Tangband (when I have the time, I would love to provide a more thorough review). It is a very well build driver compared to the Fostex units I have (maybe except the Fostex F120A, which are quite expensive). And the price of the 10f is not frightening, taking into consideration that it is produced in country where workers are still paid a reasonable salary.
Please don’t get me wrong. I am quite sure that you and many others on the forum knows a thing or two about loudspeaker building. But I can help myself when I read comments like “It's a mid” and “it's for midrange duty only”. Please buy the speakers, put them in some well designed boxes, and then report back about their sonic qualities (much in the same fashion as boris81 did above). Then we may be able to determine if it is a mid or not.
My experience with the 10f is that it offers something slightly different than the typical drivers from Fostex or Tangband (when I have the time, I would love to provide a more thorough review). It is a very well build driver compared to the Fostex units I have (maybe except the Fostex F120A, which are quite expensive). And the price of the 10f is not frightening, taking into consideration that it is produced in country where workers are still paid a reasonable salary.
About 2 or 3 years ago (right around when this driver came out, when ever that was) I took one look at it and thought, wow, that could be run rull range with a sub. I was seriously considering it. This was before I was introduced to the world of full range. So I started looking around the web, and everyone who had used it reinforced that it was a mid ONLY.
Check out my first post in this thread. Some good authority all repeated the same message. "It's a mid". It can't operate well below 500hz according to others. I'm not going to waste time buying them and building a box to prove voicecoil or JohnK wrong... You can if you'd like. Let's see some measurements. Let see you put them up against a dedicated fullrange.
In a FAST, sure. It possibly could. I dunno. I've never used it. But I suspect it is not intended to be a full range driver.
All this from a scan speak fan boy. I hope I'm wrong. 😉
Check out my first post in this thread. Some good authority all repeated the same message. "It's a mid". It can't operate well below 500hz according to others. I'm not going to waste time buying them and building a box to prove voicecoil or JohnK wrong... You can if you'd like. Let's see some measurements. Let see you put them up against a dedicated fullrange.
In a FAST, sure. It possibly could. I dunno. I've never used it. But I suspect it is not intended to be a full range driver.
All this from a scan speak fan boy. I hope I'm wrong. 😉
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My pair are now well past 100 hrs and are producing satisfactory results run FR in my office...
dave
dave
Out of sheer morbid curiosity, if these Scan Speak are OK, then why don't you have cabinet designs for other brands like Tang Band, etc.
There are under test still (this pair will eventually have cabinets), but given that i'd have to sell them for on the order of $300 pr treated, they will be given heavy scrutiny.
dave
dave
Have a look here for a recent FAST design with the 10F by the capable german magazine Hobby Hifi:
Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau
Very unfortunately, now residing in Singapore, I have not been able to buy the magazine, otherwise I could have scanned the waterfall diagram etc.
I must say I would have preferred a smaller design, but let's look at capabilities: the listening experience of the box, google translated and only polished a bit by me to correct the biggest errors is as follows (use your imagination):
The acoustically modeled area stretching far back into the clear width of the speaker positions and also forward to noticeably from the baseline. Voices were clear-cut in front of speakers. Even more exciting: "Best Audiophile Voices" - Eva Cassidy seemed to be physically present at "Is not No Sunshine". And she sounded wonderfully authentic, perfectly balanced tonally and as natural as it could wish for. Figure fantastic precision, we also experienced with the O-Zone Percussion Group (Manger Test CD), whose arsenal of various percussion was perfectly traceable to the stage. The Scan Fast rendered this percussion dynamically, this is the kind of music that stretches the limits of the speakers. The focus here, however, conceivable generous - Original volume was no problem, and to the ends of the dynamics remained unchanged, the imaging accuracy with confidence. On the other hand, the Scan Fast also makes for perfect quiet listening. The resolving power can be practically to not receive the finest decay processes remain as a triangle, and even the white bass continue to persuade. "
I thought we were talking about this drivers high frequency capabilities. Of course, any driver of this size is never going to move a lot air at the lower frequencies.
I don’t know which authority you speak of. According to ZaphAudio:
“I did some power handling sims and they show that this driver does not need to be treated like a dome midrange with minimal excursion. Even at 300Hz LR2 electrical filtering, calculated Xmax is not exceeded even with 256 watts.”
Another guy uses the 10f in a FAST configuration with a xo point at 285 Hz.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=35701
(from post 24)
Fine by me. 😉
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Chris was talking about treble. I've been saying all along it's bass is what's limiting. Iirc it was voice coil magazine that said even below 800hz wasn't appropriate. Zaph is saying an LR2 at 300hz is fine. That's not full range. That's mid range. Again, it's a mid. Sure it can work in a FAST, but then the options are really wide when you start crossing at 300hz.
Agreed, but in all fairness that applies to many smaller sized full rangers out there.
When i look at a 3" driver, i know it won't do bass. And trying to get Max Bass will usually hurt everything it does really well.
In an appropriate box, it has to be be able to connect me to the music. In a small room they can be a main system (Scott's found them ideal for his place)
The uFonken was a real eye-opener for us. It hits xmax at 100 Hz with 1w in (86 dB or so). We intended it for computer/multimedia use, but seeing the faces of gob-smacked people listening on the big rig in the big room (8k ft^3) is priceless (that has been done by others too). Add a sub, and it will do bass. Push the XO up to ~300 with helper woofers and they need few excuses. The FF85/EL166 MTMs proved that to us.
That said, the 10F should go lower than FF85.
dave
In an appropriate box, it has to be be able to connect me to the music. In a small room they can be a main system (Scott's found them ideal for his place)
The uFonken was a real eye-opener for us. It hits xmax at 100 Hz with 1w in (86 dB or so). We intended it for computer/multimedia use, but seeing the faces of gob-smacked people listening on the big rig in the big room (8k ft^3) is priceless (that has been done by others too). Add a sub, and it will do bass. Push the XO up to ~300 with helper woofers and they need few excuses. The FF85/EL166 MTMs proved that to us.
That said, the 10F should go lower than FF85.
dave
see my earlier disclaimer about not having heard these yet (should do something about that I guess) but what would these fora be without some supposition, extrapolation and pontification? 😉
based on thread content so far, maybe not quite as low as 250Hz at high SPL, but otherwise I'd think this is pretty much the area a mid-range would be designed for
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Joined 2009
To complicate things there are 2 versions of this driver - the 8 and 4 ohm. I would assume that most people here are interested in the 4ohm version for the higher sensitivity but when matching to a woofer, the 8ohm version might be easier to work with.
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I don't have a good understanding on how the Impedance affects the Fs and Qts so I'd appreciate it if somebody else elaborates further on this subject.
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I don't have a good understanding on how the Impedance affects the Fs and Qts so I'd appreciate it if somebody else elaborates further on this subject.
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Joined 2009