I just purchased a very clean pair of JBL HSL810 two way speakers and I was wondering what you recommend as far as upgrading the tweeters and/or crossover networks in these cabinets.
Right now, both speakers sound OK, however the sound appears muddy and overly bass-heavy. I have read that after upgrading the tweeters and crossovers on these speakers that the sound they make will come through much more transparently. The stock tweeters are known to be cheap, fairly unreliable units.
Since there is a huge selection of crossover networks and tweeters out there, I was wondering what you guys recommend going with?
I'm looking at a Dayton crossover like this, however I don't have any preferences as to crossover frequencies or tweeter type. I could be wrong, however should I be looking at a lower crossover frequency since the 8" woofer probably doesn't have much high-end capability?
Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Crossover 2,500 Hz 260-142
Should I just upgrade the tweeters or should I upgrade the crossovers and tweeter? If I do, what is the best combination of components for a reasonable price (hopefully less than $100 for everything)?
Here is the spec sheet for these HSL810's:
http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...dDocuments/en-US/TechnicalSheet/HLS810 ts.pdf
I know that crossover and speaker selection is an art, so I wanted to run my question by you guys first.
Thanks!
Right now, both speakers sound OK, however the sound appears muddy and overly bass-heavy. I have read that after upgrading the tweeters and crossovers on these speakers that the sound they make will come through much more transparently. The stock tweeters are known to be cheap, fairly unreliable units.
Since there is a huge selection of crossover networks and tweeters out there, I was wondering what you guys recommend going with?
I'm looking at a Dayton crossover like this, however I don't have any preferences as to crossover frequencies or tweeter type. I could be wrong, however should I be looking at a lower crossover frequency since the 8" woofer probably doesn't have much high-end capability?
Dayton Audio XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Crossover 2,500 Hz 260-142
Should I just upgrade the tweeters or should I upgrade the crossovers and tweeter? If I do, what is the best combination of components for a reasonable price (hopefully less than $100 for everything)?
Here is the spec sheet for these HSL810's:
http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands...dDocuments/en-US/TechnicalSheet/HLS810 ts.pdf
I know that crossover and speaker selection is an art, so I wanted to run my question by you guys first.
Thanks!
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Hey, I spent part of today doing some research and discovered that I should be very careful when choosing a tweeter that matches the frequency of my crossover. I then did some digging and unearthed the HIVI K1 tweeter:
Overview of K1 Drivers_HiVi,Inc
This tweeter seems to have a very good response curve and should be compatible with the stock 2600 hz crossover in these 810s. My plan is to install these tweeters (making the necessary modifications to the plastic "horns" in these cabinets), see if the speakers sound any better, and then reassess my situation. Hopefully, removing the plastic protector pieces in front of the tweeters will improve clarity.
If the tweeters don't make much of a difference, I might get some 8" woofers that will reach up higher and that can be crossed at 3000hz. Then, I could combine those woofers, these tweeters, and Dayton 3000hz 2 way crossovers.
What do you think about my plan? I just want to make sure that I am not making a mistake here. Would the cabinet size of these speakers make using different woofers difficult?
Thanks!
Overview of K1 Drivers_HiVi,Inc
This tweeter seems to have a very good response curve and should be compatible with the stock 2600 hz crossover in these 810s. My plan is to install these tweeters (making the necessary modifications to the plastic "horns" in these cabinets), see if the speakers sound any better, and then reassess my situation. Hopefully, removing the plastic protector pieces in front of the tweeters will improve clarity.
If the tweeters don't make much of a difference, I might get some 8" woofers that will reach up higher and that can be crossed at 3000hz. Then, I could combine those woofers, these tweeters, and Dayton 3000hz 2 way crossovers.
What do you think about my plan? I just want to make sure that I am not making a mistake here. Would the cabinet size of these speakers make using different woofers difficult?
Thanks!
Dabbler, thanks for the link. Would I be correct to conclude that I shouldn't purchase that Dayton Audio pre-built crossover?
As long as no thinks it's a bad idea though, I will go ahead with my purchase of these tweeters first. While the stock crossover networks surely won't be perfectly calibrated, the stock tweeters suck lol.. I can't imagine that the speakers would sound any worse when vocals already sound like a muffled mess.
I'd like to go with an active crossover, however I already have a Comtech 400 amplifier driving the entire setup (a beast of an amp). I have power to burn, so it isn't essential that I have the most efficient crossover possible. I also don't feel like adding another external component to my system and it seems like a decent active crossover is quite expensive. With 250 watts per channel, I should have no problem with even the most inefficient crossover.
I'm guessing that I need a full spec sheet and frequency response graph for the woofer if I decide to build a passive crossover, so I will probably toss out the original woofers and purchase decent units to compliment these tweeters. Then, could I just plug this info into crossover design software and generate a good passive crossover network design?
But yeah, my current plan is still to purchase these tweeters first and see how they sound...
Do you have any recommendations?
Thanks
As long as no thinks it's a bad idea though, I will go ahead with my purchase of these tweeters first. While the stock crossover networks surely won't be perfectly calibrated, the stock tweeters suck lol.. I can't imagine that the speakers would sound any worse when vocals already sound like a muffled mess.
I'd like to go with an active crossover, however I already have a Comtech 400 amplifier driving the entire setup (a beast of an amp). I have power to burn, so it isn't essential that I have the most efficient crossover possible. I also don't feel like adding another external component to my system and it seems like a decent active crossover is quite expensive. With 250 watts per channel, I should have no problem with even the most inefficient crossover.
I'm guessing that I need a full spec sheet and frequency response graph for the woofer if I decide to build a passive crossover, so I will probably toss out the original woofers and purchase decent units to compliment these tweeters. Then, could I just plug this info into crossover design software and generate a good passive crossover network design?
But yeah, my current plan is still to purchase these tweeters first and see how they sound...
Do you have any recommendations?
Thanks
You can start here with this pair of tweeter caps, and test.😎
ClarityCap 2.7 mfd PX Range Polypropylene Caps: Madisound Speaker Store
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.epinions.com/review/elec_Home_Speakers-Bookshelf_JBL_HLS-JBL_HLS810/content_14001802884
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Should I throw those in series with these K1 tweeters or modify the original crossovers?
Thanks
Changing capacitors will achieve jack all.
The original JBL tweeter is a 10mm polycarbonate dome, there are no replacements that will fit this horn, physically or acoustically. Even if there was, the transplant would be a failure since you would have to redesign the crossover which you dont have the experience to do.
I suggest you sell the speakers and try something else. That's the beauty of buying second hand - you can try lots of different speakers without losing money if / when they dont suit your taste.
The original JBL tweeter is a 10mm polycarbonate dome, there are no replacements that will fit this horn, physically or acoustically. Even if there was, the transplant would be a failure since you would have to redesign the crossover which you dont have the experience to do.
I suggest you sell the speakers and try something else. That's the beauty of buying second hand - you can try lots of different speakers without losing money if / when they dont suit your taste.
Dabbler, I don't have tons of experience, but I do wish to learn. I am well accustomed to hacking up plastic and wooden enclosures, so I do not mind breaking out some plastic snips and a file here. My plan was to enlarge the center opening in the plastic horn piece so that a 1" tweeter could be installed instead. I might not be able to get the crossover adjusted perfectly, however I DO know some of the basics already so I hope to give it a shot. Isn't that the point of this forum? (to educate newbies lol)
I tend to think that all is not lost since professionals designed speakers strictly by how they sounded until the 1980's.
And I knew that I would not like these speakers in their stock form (I actually traded in some HSL 410's for these).
I tend to think that all is not lost since professionals designed speakers strictly by how they sounded until the 1980's.
And I knew that I would not like these speakers in their stock form (I actually traded in some HSL 410's for these).
Do you think that purchasing a couple of these tweeters makes sense for these speakers? If so, I will go ahead and order them in. They're certainly in my price range, etc.
Then I could work on the crossovers.
Thanks again
I'm no expert in these matters, but mounting just any dome tweeter in that horn has a good chance of creating more problems than you have now, since I do know a horn+driver relationship is quite complicated, no matter what their price point is.
I've heard the largest model in that JBL series, a floorstander with dual 8" woofers with the same horn mounted between the woofers, several times at a buddy's friend's house several years ago and never noticed them sounding muffled.* If your tweeters really are muffled (as opposed to just us two having different opinions on how a tweeter should sound e.g. "bright", neutral or "warm"), there is the distinct possibility that the tweeter is malfunctioning. Those tiny domes, built by many different manufacturers over the years, have really small voice coils and always seemed on the delicate side to me. So when paired with a 8" driver at such a relatively low xover point - actually, I don't think I have ever seen that tweeter used with any woofer larger than 6.5" - it may have seen some heavy use where its internal wiring ended up being compromised. Or, the crossover itself may have issues, like an overpowered i.e. damaged capacitor or the cap has simply drifted off-spec due to aging (but that usually takes a couple decades).
* actually, except for their most expensive models, JBL's speakers have a reputation for sounding rather forward/bright......and that's been true since I've been into audio starting in the late 70s
I've heard the largest model in that JBL series, a floorstander with dual 8" woofers with the same horn mounted between the woofers, several times at a buddy's friend's house several years ago and never noticed them sounding muffled.* If your tweeters really are muffled (as opposed to just us two having different opinions on how a tweeter should sound e.g. "bright", neutral or "warm"), there is the distinct possibility that the tweeter is malfunctioning. Those tiny domes, built by many different manufacturers over the years, have really small voice coils and always seemed on the delicate side to me. So when paired with a 8" driver at such a relatively low xover point - actually, I don't think I have ever seen that tweeter used with any woofer larger than 6.5" - it may have seen some heavy use where its internal wiring ended up being compromised. Or, the crossover itself may have issues, like an overpowered i.e. damaged capacitor or the cap has simply drifted off-spec due to aging (but that usually takes a couple decades).
* actually, except for their most expensive models, JBL's speakers have a reputation for sounding rather forward/bright......and that's been true since I've been into audio starting in the late 70s
Thanks for the reply.
if it helps at all, when i am watching movies or listening to music, it does seem like highs do not come through as clearly as lows. it's frustrating because it's vastly easier to hear sound effects like gun shots and engine noises, while vocals are incredibly weak and "muffled".
Since this does not seem to be an inherent characteristic of the HSL series of speakers, it does make sense that these tweeters might be blown out.
i did some more research and discovered that the drivers are nothing more than regular dome tweeters. They are usually audax dome tweeters that are designed to slide into the mount on these plastic "horns"... so they are not true horn tweeters.
Tweeter problem on JBL HLS series - AVS Forum
in fact, a company called the Speaker Exchange recommends using Jensen 1002 tweeters as a drop-in replacement for the tweeters in these speakers.
Speaker Exchange | Jensen 1.75″ Round Dome Tweeter 4 ohms
JBL offers new replacement tweeters for this line of speakers, however they cost $30 a piece. if i replace these units, i would rather replace them with high-quality, larger dome tweeters that are actually worth $30 and that will last.
While i'm not an expert on these speakers, it does not seem like they are designed with any special horn/woofer compatibility in mind... if anything, the jbl engineers probably designed them as if they were building regular dome tweeter/woofer speakers. i'm sure that the marketing department pushed the horn concept to boost sales...
With this point in mind, would it be easier to find a compatible dome tweeter? Checking the impedance and frequency response graphs of the k1, it seems like these HiVi's could be a close match to the original dome tweeters. i could definitely consider other tweeter options if you think that they would be better suited.
Thanks again for the helpful replies!
Edit: i will check the crossovers for problems. if the tweeters use electrolytic capacitors, i could replace them with nice polypropylene caps.
if it helps at all, when i am watching movies or listening to music, it does seem like highs do not come through as clearly as lows. it's frustrating because it's vastly easier to hear sound effects like gun shots and engine noises, while vocals are incredibly weak and "muffled".
Since this does not seem to be an inherent characteristic of the HSL series of speakers, it does make sense that these tweeters might be blown out.
i did some more research and discovered that the drivers are nothing more than regular dome tweeters. They are usually audax dome tweeters that are designed to slide into the mount on these plastic "horns"... so they are not true horn tweeters.
Tweeter problem on JBL HLS series - AVS Forum
in fact, a company called the Speaker Exchange recommends using Jensen 1002 tweeters as a drop-in replacement for the tweeters in these speakers.
Speaker Exchange | Jensen 1.75″ Round Dome Tweeter 4 ohms
JBL offers new replacement tweeters for this line of speakers, however they cost $30 a piece. if i replace these units, i would rather replace them with high-quality, larger dome tweeters that are actually worth $30 and that will last.
While i'm not an expert on these speakers, it does not seem like they are designed with any special horn/woofer compatibility in mind... if anything, the jbl engineers probably designed them as if they were building regular dome tweeter/woofer speakers. i'm sure that the marketing department pushed the horn concept to boost sales...
With this point in mind, would it be easier to find a compatible dome tweeter? Checking the impedance and frequency response graphs of the k1, it seems like these HiVi's could be a close match to the original dome tweeters. i could definitely consider other tweeter options if you think that they would be better suited.
Thanks again for the helpful replies!
Edit: i will check the crossovers for problems. if the tweeters use electrolytic capacitors, i could replace them with nice polypropylene caps.
By the way, here is another post from a guy who was replacing these tweeters in 410's with better domes:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/176844-jbl-hls410-tweeter-replacement.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/176844-jbl-hls410-tweeter-replacement.html
This comment confirms that you dont have the experience to perform the "upgrade" you are proposing
I'm upgrading my amplifier at the moment, however I will soon listen to the 810's closely again. I'm using the same model of amplifier in a similar setup with a pair of Pionner SB-BL41LR's and the sound is coming through crisply and clearly. As I recall, sound is hardly coming from the tweeters at all. If anything, it is at a much lower volume than sound coming from the woofers.
Again, I'm not an expert, however I have built Ian's improved tube headphone amplifier and I have repaired two Crown Com-tech 400's so I am more than capable testing and assembling circuitry. I also have programming experience so I don't see why I can't use speaker analysis software, etc.
Either consumer speakers from the 90's stunk in general or there is a problem with this set. I have auditioned many high-end headphones, bookshelf speakers, etc. and these are by far the worst pair that I have listened to extensively.
If I were running a large speaker company and horn tweeters were the rage at the moment, I would definitely introduce a set of "horn"-based speakers as cheaply as possible... even if that meant not using actual horn tweeters. Actual horn tweeters are usually sold with the horn attached or include a fairly universal screw mount. These do not include a screw mount and the plastic "horn" pieces hardly have any slope at all. No, I do not consider these real horn tweeters and it is unlikely in my mind that these shallow "horns" have much of an effect on tweeter performance. If I am wrong, do you have any material that could educate me?
Finally, if I buy more durable, competent tweeters like the HIVI K1's, what modifications should I look into making to my crossovers to get acceptable performance? I don't care if these speakers rival the best consumer ones on the market now, however I would like to be able to understand what people are saying in shows, movies, etc.
Thanks
So then buy the JBL replacements you found on the web and install them. Problem solved, no?
Those cost $60 total plus shipping and I'd hate to waste that when they blow out again. 🙄
On the other hand, I could purchase 2 K1 tweeters for $30 and have a set that will last decades. The solution seems clear to me since one of my goals when taking on this project was to get some experience working with speakers.
Do you not know what can be adjusted on these crossovers to make them more compatible with new tweeters? I'm looking at the K1's because their frequency response is relatively flat from about 2000 hz up. Their impedance is also relatively stable. Since these crossovers are set to 2600hz, that SHOULD give me enough headroom.
These speakers aren't nearly as complicated as the Crown amplifiers I worked on. With just a few crossover components and the 2-way design of the 810's, it should be relatively simple to ball-park a reasonable solution. Again, isn't that the whole point of this website?
techbiker: based on your additional descriptions, I am 99.9% sure the tweeters are damaged or completely blown.
Also, it doesn't matter what the shape of the horn is or how much they cost or much the driver itself cost, because simply placing them together will cause some type of interaction. And that small "cap" suspended above the tweeter dome also interacts with the output of the dome IIRC usually to correct some type of phase problem; plus, every time I've seen this dome tweeter, all the way back to its introduction around 1983, it has included that cap (and since it is not attractive in any way it is not just a cosmetic addition).
Me? I would buy the JBL tweeter replacements and call it a day. They may look the same as a $5 version sold on a retail site, but JBL may have had their version customized for use in that particular speaker series and possibly even that specific model. This is a common scenario in the commercial speaker world, going back decades (though JBL's best models usually use drivers built by JBL themselves).
Also, it doesn't matter what the shape of the horn is or how much they cost or much the driver itself cost, because simply placing them together will cause some type of interaction. And that small "cap" suspended above the tweeter dome also interacts with the output of the dome IIRC usually to correct some type of phase problem; plus, every time I've seen this dome tweeter, all the way back to its introduction around 1983, it has included that cap (and since it is not attractive in any way it is not just a cosmetic addition).
Me? I would buy the JBL tweeter replacements and call it a day. They may look the same as a $5 version sold on a retail site, but JBL may have had their version customized for use in that particular speaker series and possibly even that specific model. This is a common scenario in the commercial speaker world, going back decades (though JBL's best models usually use drivers built by JBL themselves).
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