So, it's like that, 'eh?
Hi boys. Lance here. While most of the posters here have been polite, well spoken, and intelligent, I must call out Miles Prower "whatever the hell his name was" and Cassiel "Big Mouth" for particular honors. Oh yes, I can't forget 316a for his rather limited expressive powers.
It has long been my misunderstanding that forums like this were for the purpose of working together. A group of fellows with a common interest trying to reach accord. Sure looks like a bunch of losers crying in their beer.
I exclude from that last comment those that have been cordial and constructive. That is, the majority of posters. As Globug has correctly noted several times, that sort of behavior should be beneath us. Yes, he phrased it differently. Still, that was his sentiment and those that seek only to offend without creating anything, yes, like The Manta in all his pompous glory, should seek to perhaps find more positive pursuits. Pulling the wings from small insects springs to mind.
It appears that most have read the Dick Oshler article. Mr. Oshler is a fine gentleman who was gracious enough to let me reminisce and share my misguided past with the public. We could use more of his restraint and excellent manners in the HiFi community.
I've met many fine people in my days playing in HiFi. The sane ones knew enough not to take this seriously enough to attack those they felt jealousy of. I've seen some
strident denials of the green monster out there. Sure, let's deny the obvious. The barbed attacks and lowbrow comments are driven by altruism and bonhomie perhaps?
Let's face it. We're barely out of caves. Troglodytes are everywhere, even in this forum. That does not mean that petty name calling and invective should pass without notice. There's a reason I don't haunt forums like this. Actually there are several reasons primarily that I don't really care all that much for them. If you like these chat rooms, fine, not mine to judge that but preschool demeanor should not be encouraged.
On another front, Steve is only one of my students. His quite gifted and those that have not heard his units should consider that perhaps they judge without evidence based on their own prejudice. He has worked for a long time to get the reputation for excellence that he has achieved. Those who ask him to simply give up his secrets for your edification or you will not believe are foisting a canard.
It's like this Bubba, remember Colonel Sanders? He wouldn't give up his secrets either. His them in a safe vault if I remember correctly. What's the big deal you say? It's just cooking, right? You can just go to the Supermarket and get the same ingredients and do the same thing, right?
Well, no, you can't. Many have tried and even after his demise the Colonel still smiles because his product still sells. It's the same with Steve. He's made a nice business and founded his niche. He should just open his soul and teach you because, because, well because of what? He owes you something?
He owes you nothing. You want the secret then learn it yourself if it's so damn easy.
I digress.
No, I don't use a paraphase or a floating paraphase. Sorry but I don't. This is not rocket science bubbala. Never was and never will be. I don't use Magnavox circuitry either. Never did. I did have a revelation long ago when my Magnavox 175 chassis significantly bettered my Marantz 8b but that was only the start of the journey. You've read the Olsher. Read it again. I offer no help. None.
That's not that I'm some stingy old slob either. I've had many students and never charged any of them a penny. That's different. This has become a nasty forum and I'm making the one post and that's it. Anyone that wants to beef can go ahead but those complaints will fall on deaf ears.
Except for a very few, my students built for themselves. They built for the pleasure of it. They built to have the best amp ever made in the world. Real DIY types know well that the best amp ever built in the world is an amp you have built yourself. I think that diyaudio is a wonderful place. I wish that it had been around when I was building everything from SAM's photofacts that I could find. I might have found what I was looking for sooner.
Then again, too much information can lead one astray. As I mentioned in the Osler piece, most of the famous circuits I built were dreadful. Most of the circuits I built from the pages of Glass Audio and Audio Amateur were dreadful too. I was left with the question then of the prevalence of either tin ears or writers that felt compelled to laud their efforts with praise for results unrealized. I see a number of those types posting here that superb results are not to be achieved by simple methods.
Delude yourself as you like. Such that choose that course are not to be dissuaded.
One picks one's own line and follows it as seems fit. Your aim is not up to me.
One poster did query, why does everybody have to make the best amp or words to that effect. Well, they don't but many do. Tastes vary and what's gold to one may be dregs to another. That's part of what makes the world go around. Some like vanilla, some like spumoni. It's the same in audio. There are no absolutes. It's you in your living room with a damn good single malt listening to what you love saying, yeah, that's it all right. If anyone says different they're wrong.
I've digressed again.
Ah, I could talk all night. I must mention to Allen, no, I'm not upset with you. Your choice of words could be better but c'est la vie.
As to Globug, he was talented from the start. He built a push pull parallel amplifier as a first effort and aced it. I've had many students as I've mentioned and very few would have even thought of starting out that way. He did and did it right. That's rare and should be applauded.
As to Steve, hey man WHAT are you doing wasting your time and effort on a forum like this? Seriously, I'm out of here and you should be too.
Hi boys. Lance here. While most of the posters here have been polite, well spoken, and intelligent, I must call out Miles Prower "whatever the hell his name was" and Cassiel "Big Mouth" for particular honors. Oh yes, I can't forget 316a for his rather limited expressive powers.
It has long been my misunderstanding that forums like this were for the purpose of working together. A group of fellows with a common interest trying to reach accord. Sure looks like a bunch of losers crying in their beer.
I exclude from that last comment those that have been cordial and constructive. That is, the majority of posters. As Globug has correctly noted several times, that sort of behavior should be beneath us. Yes, he phrased it differently. Still, that was his sentiment and those that seek only to offend without creating anything, yes, like The Manta in all his pompous glory, should seek to perhaps find more positive pursuits. Pulling the wings from small insects springs to mind.
It appears that most have read the Dick Oshler article. Mr. Oshler is a fine gentleman who was gracious enough to let me reminisce and share my misguided past with the public. We could use more of his restraint and excellent manners in the HiFi community.
I've met many fine people in my days playing in HiFi. The sane ones knew enough not to take this seriously enough to attack those they felt jealousy of. I've seen some
strident denials of the green monster out there. Sure, let's deny the obvious. The barbed attacks and lowbrow comments are driven by altruism and bonhomie perhaps?
Let's face it. We're barely out of caves. Troglodytes are everywhere, even in this forum. That does not mean that petty name calling and invective should pass without notice. There's a reason I don't haunt forums like this. Actually there are several reasons primarily that I don't really care all that much for them. If you like these chat rooms, fine, not mine to judge that but preschool demeanor should not be encouraged.
On another front, Steve is only one of my students. His quite gifted and those that have not heard his units should consider that perhaps they judge without evidence based on their own prejudice. He has worked for a long time to get the reputation for excellence that he has achieved. Those who ask him to simply give up his secrets for your edification or you will not believe are foisting a canard.
It's like this Bubba, remember Colonel Sanders? He wouldn't give up his secrets either. His them in a safe vault if I remember correctly. What's the big deal you say? It's just cooking, right? You can just go to the Supermarket and get the same ingredients and do the same thing, right?
Well, no, you can't. Many have tried and even after his demise the Colonel still smiles because his product still sells. It's the same with Steve. He's made a nice business and founded his niche. He should just open his soul and teach you because, because, well because of what? He owes you something?
He owes you nothing. You want the secret then learn it yourself if it's so damn easy.
I digress.
No, I don't use a paraphase or a floating paraphase. Sorry but I don't. This is not rocket science bubbala. Never was and never will be. I don't use Magnavox circuitry either. Never did. I did have a revelation long ago when my Magnavox 175 chassis significantly bettered my Marantz 8b but that was only the start of the journey. You've read the Olsher. Read it again. I offer no help. None.
That's not that I'm some stingy old slob either. I've had many students and never charged any of them a penny. That's different. This has become a nasty forum and I'm making the one post and that's it. Anyone that wants to beef can go ahead but those complaints will fall on deaf ears.
Except for a very few, my students built for themselves. They built for the pleasure of it. They built to have the best amp ever made in the world. Real DIY types know well that the best amp ever built in the world is an amp you have built yourself. I think that diyaudio is a wonderful place. I wish that it had been around when I was building everything from SAM's photofacts that I could find. I might have found what I was looking for sooner.
Then again, too much information can lead one astray. As I mentioned in the Osler piece, most of the famous circuits I built were dreadful. Most of the circuits I built from the pages of Glass Audio and Audio Amateur were dreadful too. I was left with the question then of the prevalence of either tin ears or writers that felt compelled to laud their efforts with praise for results unrealized. I see a number of those types posting here that superb results are not to be achieved by simple methods.
Delude yourself as you like. Such that choose that course are not to be dissuaded.
One picks one's own line and follows it as seems fit. Your aim is not up to me.
One poster did query, why does everybody have to make the best amp or words to that effect. Well, they don't but many do. Tastes vary and what's gold to one may be dregs to another. That's part of what makes the world go around. Some like vanilla, some like spumoni. It's the same in audio. There are no absolutes. It's you in your living room with a damn good single malt listening to what you love saying, yeah, that's it all right. If anyone says different they're wrong.
I've digressed again.
Ah, I could talk all night. I must mention to Allen, no, I'm not upset with you. Your choice of words could be better but c'est la vie.
As to Globug, he was talented from the start. He built a push pull parallel amplifier as a first effort and aced it. I've had many students as I've mentioned and very few would have even thought of starting out that way. He did and did it right. That's rare and should be applauded.
As to Steve, hey man WHAT are you doing wasting your time and effort on a forum like this? Seriously, I'm out of here and you should be too.
Lance, you say you would make one post and that was it, well might I ask you to address an issue that is not part of the 'audio nirvana secret', that is safety. I would like to discuss the topology and methodology, but Steve has decided not to. Fair enough. But safety is something that is beyond trying to preserve a client base based on some proprietary secret. I identified some perceived safety deficiencies with product being sold to the public. That is not being bitchy or jealous, it is a genuine concern for Steve's clients and for Steve himself. He said that he would not discuss the two conductor power cord. He said he got that from you. I am asking you for your comment regarding this practice. As noted by several EE types, this is not safe. All of the other stuff is just chat room banter, but the safety issue will ruin peoples lives.
if you see fit Lance, so be it. You don't belong here anyway.
That isn't a whine - its a statement of fact.
While Nelson Pass and others share the love via schematics, in-depth analysis, workshops and self critique, you are clearly commercial and not interested in that approach.
No beef with that - everyone's gotta eat!
But your absence won't be a major problem for this forum - we have plenty of expertise to work with.
I do have to wonder at your teachings on safety if what your best student says is true, but that is your (and potentially your clients) funeral - I have made my choices as have you....
Respec'
That isn't a whine - its a statement of fact.
While Nelson Pass and others share the love via schematics, in-depth analysis, workshops and self critique, you are clearly commercial and not interested in that approach.
No beef with that - everyone's gotta eat!
But your absence won't be a major problem for this forum - we have plenty of expertise to work with.
I do have to wonder at your teachings on safety if what your best student says is true, but that is your (and potentially your clients) funeral - I have made my choices as have you....
Respec'
"So, it's like that, 'eh? ........."
I think most of the issues that were contested here on the forum were valid concerns. The forum members here are generally quite responsible in discussing the merits or concerns relating to design ideas without getting into hardened "religious" dogmas. The discussions here are generally helpful to everyone concerned. Most are interested in building their own DIY amplifiers, so would not be potential customers to a commercial enterprise, but I can understand the reluctance to discuss commercial "secret sauces". However, many times I have seen someone's idea(s) developed further here to everyone's benefit, owing to the large pool of talent on tap. That is definitely something to consider.
I find it odd that the "teacher" will only discuss his experience with his disciples and not others with interest in the same objectives. This sounds suspiciously like an effort to develop a commercially oriented aura of secretive priests with a mysterious, unassailable guru leader. Perhaps the real agenda is for mutual advertising purposes and not really the continuance of the vacuum tube art.
I think most of the issues that were contested here on the forum were valid concerns. The forum members here are generally quite responsible in discussing the merits or concerns relating to design ideas without getting into hardened "religious" dogmas. The discussions here are generally helpful to everyone concerned. Most are interested in building their own DIY amplifiers, so would not be potential customers to a commercial enterprise, but I can understand the reluctance to discuss commercial "secret sauces". However, many times I have seen someone's idea(s) developed further here to everyone's benefit, owing to the large pool of talent on tap. That is definitely something to consider.
I find it odd that the "teacher" will only discuss his experience with his disciples and not others with interest in the same objectives. This sounds suspiciously like an effort to develop a commercially oriented aura of secretive priests with a mysterious, unassailable guru leader. Perhaps the real agenda is for mutual advertising purposes and not really the continuance of the vacuum tube art.
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Well, he's upset. Sweet words of approval would probably have had a different effect but there weren't enough of them.... I guess. You don't learn much from blind followers but it pleases the ego. I'd take intelligent criticism any day but to each his own.
He doesn't like people saying his amps are as ugly as sin. He does not want to hear people saying his wiring technique sucks. I can understand that but this is a public forum and here we have opinions. Most of them are not based on jealousy, they're just opinions.
He doesn't like people saying his amps are as ugly as sin. He does not want to hear people saying his wiring technique sucks. I can understand that but this is a public forum and here we have opinions. Most of them are not based on jealousy, they're just opinions.
I was wondering when & where this mystery mentor of Steves' would show up. As expected, the response has been long-winded, folksy, and fully devoid of anything remotely technical. Perusing Steves Bio, there is no formal training, no academia, no structured transfer of knowledge. It's kinda like cave-men telling & re-telling fables.....long ago.
If indeed Steve has come across something new & better it could have been called the "Steven Paraphase"or some such .........but no, this won't happen.
The evidence has been presented here, to wit............These are two "enthusiasts", self taught, seemingly without formal training, telling each other over and over falsehoods & inaccurate assumptions.............til they themselves, believe it to be true. All the professionals, Phds', MSEEs' will tell them the truth, facts,wisdom but they will not listen. Theirs is a world unto their own.
_________________________________________________________Rick.........
If indeed Steve has come across something new & better it could have been called the "Steven Paraphase"or some such .........but no, this won't happen.
The evidence has been presented here, to wit............These are two "enthusiasts", self taught, seemingly without formal training, telling each other over and over falsehoods & inaccurate assumptions.............til they themselves, believe it to be true. All the professionals, Phds', MSEEs' will tell them the truth, facts,wisdom but they will not listen. Theirs is a world unto their own.
_________________________________________________________Rick.........
I went and read the Dick Oshler article. I can see why you like it Lance. The irony of your decrying hifi writers in the article whilst accepting the plaudits from one is not lost on me - perhaps it was on you?
If you don't use floating paraphase, why does Dick think you do? And why have you not corrected that perception (if its incorrect)?
Here it is - others have said it so I'll rephrase. Audiophile magazines and the vast majority of buyers of one-off equipment are generally technically incompetent. They are like the art buyer who doesn't know about art, but knows what they like.
In here, the focus is the other way around. With a few exceptions, you have to substantiate what you've got and prepare to have it critically examined. Some are good at his and coax you gently toward the endpoint, others are more direct. Commentary is sometimes "robust".
Its the difference between reading cheap hotrod magazines where everything is build of Edelbrock and Mallory parts in a paint by numbers "performance" build with all the cosmetics and none of the engineering, and a real in depth performance house approach where everything - brakes, steering, cooling, aerodynamics, power, transmission - EVERYTHING - including looks - is analysed (with numbers and measurement...) before being implemented. And analysis means being able to say "I'm wrong"
In my experience in this forum over a few years and as an absolute beginner, I have to say the value is immeasurable. If I have been slapped down, i have deserved it. When I have asked (with an open mind) for advice, it has been there. Where i have asked (again with an open mind) for critique it has been freely, handsomely and fully given in a spirit of guidance and learning.
Pity you won't be here for it - you could have given and received i suspect
If you don't use floating paraphase, why does Dick think you do? And why have you not corrected that perception (if its incorrect)?
Here it is - others have said it so I'll rephrase. Audiophile magazines and the vast majority of buyers of one-off equipment are generally technically incompetent. They are like the art buyer who doesn't know about art, but knows what they like.
In here, the focus is the other way around. With a few exceptions, you have to substantiate what you've got and prepare to have it critically examined. Some are good at his and coax you gently toward the endpoint, others are more direct. Commentary is sometimes "robust".
Its the difference between reading cheap hotrod magazines where everything is build of Edelbrock and Mallory parts in a paint by numbers "performance" build with all the cosmetics and none of the engineering, and a real in depth performance house approach where everything - brakes, steering, cooling, aerodynamics, power, transmission - EVERYTHING - including looks - is analysed (with numbers and measurement...) before being implemented. And analysis means being able to say "I'm wrong"
In my experience in this forum over a few years and as an absolute beginner, I have to say the value is immeasurable. If I have been slapped down, i have deserved it. When I have asked (with an open mind) for advice, it has been there. Where i have asked (again with an open mind) for critique it has been freely, handsomely and fully given in a spirit of guidance and learning.
Pity you won't be here for it - you could have given and received i suspect
Interesting thread. Sorta like the faith healers coming to the surgeons' forum...
Anyway, technical issues aside, I'm wondering about this 'successful business story". Steve, by your own admission, you sell 10 amps a year at a typical price of $3800. So what do you do for a living? 🙂
Anyway, technical issues aside, I'm wondering about this 'successful business story". Steve, by your own admission, you sell 10 amps a year at a typical price of $3800. So what do you do for a living? 🙂
I note in the Oshler link above Master Builders: Lance Cochrane And Jim Nicholls Review By Dick Olsher that he photo of the 'Jim' build 807 amp also has an IEC power receptacle with the ground lug naked, that is, not connected to the chassis. Also note that there is no cover on the bottom of the amp. I know some on here build with no bottom cover, but all it takes is for the amp to be mishandled, even when unplugged, to disturb the wiring underneath and create that shock hazard.
Reading the article, here appears the problem:
So, he does not know what he is doing, just gives his 'students' an schematic and detailed instructions. No wonder Steve is defensive, he has no real theory so does not have any comprehension of why you are talking of poor layout and dress and the resulting implications. Same goes for the safety stuff. I bet if you asked him how much voltage he thought was going through those plate cap leads he would have no idea 🙁
Pity he spat the dummy, he could have learned a lot here and improved his product.
Reading the article, here appears the problem:
So, he does not know what he is doing, just gives his 'students' an schematic and detailed instructions. No wonder Steve is defensive, he has no real theory so does not have any comprehension of why you are talking of poor layout and dress and the resulting implications. Same goes for the safety stuff. I bet if you asked him how much voltage he thought was going through those plate cap leads he would have no idea 🙁
Pity he spat the dummy, he could have learned a lot here and improved his product.
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Interesting,
Did Cassiel let the cat out of the bag?
Why would anyone walk away from "safety fact"..if they can prove its wrong?
I think Steve should stay even if he dosen't log in, there is a lot of important info here...(keep the secret) but stay safe..🙂
Sorry the comment is to political..
I still find the amps interesting...
Regards
M. Gregg
After that much bashing (no matter how well meaning), who would come back for more???
A masochist maybe, but certainly not someone with a big ego!
A masochist maybe, but certainly not someone with a big ego!
No, but because this forum is diyAudio. Not "self promote commercial product audio." Plenty of places for that, but not here. Plenty of audio writers out there looking for someone who spins a good tale.
Not that this would be a good audience for you, folks here BUILD things, they don't buy them. We have a mix of legendary and accomplished engineers and newbies wanting to learn. People don't hide stuff, they share it. It's your right not to, but then don't participate. And don't be surprised if the deficiencies of your product are discussed in detail, especially safety and construction aspects. Those discussions will come up in Google searching for your product, but hey, that's life.
If you choose to post further, I'll remind you of the same things I reminded Steve- we encourage vigorous technical debate and criticism, but personal attacks are strictly forbidden. Repeat things like in your last post and your posting privileges will be revoked. Be a bit more respectful and forthcoming and you might gain some benefit from participation here. Your choice.
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