Hi there: Along with a the delivery of a Behringer device, was a catalog of their products: included was information on a Behringer device which has switch selectable amplifier sounds, so you can run your classD with the distortion characteristics of your favorite tube amp...just dial-up Willianson or ultralinear, etc and enjoy the distortion of your choice! ....regards, Michael
Isn't this enough to objectively decide which is better? Isn't the reason is acceptable enough for everyone else to consider?
The problem is, not everyone can instantly "detect" the (in)favorable characteristic. While it does affect everyone, including those who do not realize.
Someone may be impressed by certain sound (because of transparency, bass slam, smooth treble, or whatever characteristics) only to find out sooner or later that he doesn't really want them.
Cute, but if you've ever used these effect boxes you'll know they aren't that great. Fun to play with, tho.
PRECISELY - My Class A Amp I can listen to all day and enjoy every second of the experience. The Class D's that I have "grate" on my ears after a short while.
Please dont less this be an argument of what is better. The right amp with the right speakers will sound good. Unfortunately the matching is far more critical with Class D amps.
When I lived in Scotland we had a wonderful Hi-Fi shop that would let you borrow their goods and try them at home. It's only after a few hours that you will really know if you like the product.
Many Hi-Fi shops will deliberately show off their products with perfectly matched peripherals. Of course it will sound good. But then you take it home and things aren't so good.
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I couldn't agree more with those last two paragraphs. A satisfactory HiFi component purchase requires being able to hear the prospective component in one's home system for at least at full evening's worth of listening. Otherwise, it's truly a gamble for a purchase which may cost thousands, only to then take a financial loss on resale when it soon proves unsatisfactory in one's system. I wish that the liberal home trial policy of that shop in Scotland were the norm across the HiFi retail industry, especially at the high-end, what with it's premium pricing and profit margins.
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What does "get it right" mean?
Are you referring to getting it "right" subjectively or objectively?
This is a huge topic...
Cost saving?
Look at the other thread (hypex ncore) where guys start ordering the just released new hypex module. Over a 1000 Euro to make a DIY stereo amp, and no evidence yet of it's value for money....
I did not mean to open a can of worms. I currently use ASL Monsoons in triode (with teflon caps, etc.) but these monsters have 8-el34s per side and I am seeking something less monstrous and less power hungry. Thus my desire to switch to class d. I am, however,unwilling to give up sound quality. Thanks for all the help. I am currently looking at the new Hypex modules and Classd Audio. Will wait for some subjective opinions on the Hypex as to whether they are worth the money compared to ClassD Audio. Thanks
I bet the majority of the people ordering already own or have heard the previous UcD generation of amps and were extremely pleased by the sound quality.
Other than that and the impeccable measurements, what more "evidence" should they need before they pull the trigger? A Stereophile review or perhaps a favorable forum post by a Class A amp owner?
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Interesting since many are OK with Class D for Woofer/subwoofer use where due to the nature of small room acoustics space and image are not a factor.
I don't think the imaging of the Class-D amps I've used is awful, not at all. Just not as good as most Class-A amps. Don't know if the class has anything to do with it, or if it's other factors. I don't find the Class-D as smooth, either - but much better than almost all Class-AB transistor I've heard.
Given the choice on sound alone I'll take tube Class-A, but will take Class-D over just about any solid state AB I've ever heard, even some tube Class-AB. The listening fatigue factor is not to be ignored, but the better Class-D really aren't bad.
Given the choice on sound alone I'll take tube Class-A, but will take Class-D over just about any solid state AB I've ever heard, even some tube Class-AB. The listening fatigue factor is not to be ignored, but the better Class-D really aren't bad.
I don't think one can categorically say that all class D amps are harsh. I would however expect a greater disparity in the sound quality of different Class D amps. The board layout and component placing is much more critical for a Class D amp that a Class A amp, same for the design of the switching power supply.
The CAE tools required for this sort of design work are not cheap and probably beyond the reach of many small companies.
I think this is why people like Class D audio and Hypex are distinguishing themselves.
The CAE tools required for this sort of design work are not cheap and probably beyond the reach of many small companies.
I think this is why people like Class D audio and Hypex are distinguishing themselves.
I don't understand that reasoning.
Even in small rooms dedicated set ups can create fine space and image.
Thank you. There all types of Class D amps now and the 'harsh' description can not be used as a blanket statement any longer. The classdaudio.com/ir2092-based amps for instance are very popular due to the fact that they are not harsh at all (opinions may vary on them, but I have never seen the word harsh used). Complete opposite. It's like people who go around saying tube amps are all warm and euphonic.
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I am referring specifically to frequencies below the room modes where the wavelength of the signal is longer than the dimensions of the room.
There is not really a sense of image at those frequencies, this is why multi (3+) subwoofer setups work and don't negatively affect the imaging of the systems they are used with.
If we are speaking of frequencies above this then the space and imaging characteristics of the amp come into play.
For what it's worth ... I love the sound of Class-D. I prefer a good Tripath TA3020 or TK2050 amp to anything else I've auditioned. Maybe there's better gear out there but I haven't heard it. I'd pit my TA3020 build against the Audio Note tube amp I've auditioned - and I'd expect a favorable outcome.
A recording engineer I know agrees - he uses a Tripath TA3020 in his monitoring setup. The mixes translate well.
Class-D can compete. For sure. It's all a playing field, it's all good, and Class-D is just another beautiful tool we use to enjoy music.
A recording engineer I know agrees - he uses a Tripath TA3020 in his monitoring setup. The mixes translate well.
Class-D can compete. For sure. It's all a playing field, it's all good, and Class-D is just another beautiful tool we use to enjoy music.
Audiophiles are like kids. All of them (me too) think they can hear more then ordinary people can hear, or lets say, they can recognize small details which make sound good or less good. But hearing is so subjective and different in each individual and there is medical explanations for that as well. What I want to say, you can have perfect specification of the amp and get perfect measurement but system is good as your weakest part in system chain is good. Class D amps can be "perfect" and in the game vs. class A or tube amp but point is how to make good synergy with other stuff (I use tube preamp with class D).
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I don't know what audiophiles are (or who they are). But don't mix up subjectivity with objectivity. People can do certain thing better than others with training/practice and talent.
In a blind test (well, here among audio lovers, don't know in other locations), I can see great consistency between these people. So it is not subjective.
I have a friend whose ears I can trust. When I buy something from him, I ask "Which one is better sounding, this or that?", and I always trust him because this is NOT a subjective thing to me, it is not something without proof.
If you think hearing is so subjective, I will disagree a bit, and I have many times proven it to myself.
When my friend was so blindly in love with his Tripath, I told him to believe me that he will give up the amp in less than 6 months. Because I know him. He is above 50 years old with experience owning many kinds of (tube) amps. Was I wrong? Was I just "lucky"?
I can tell you many similar stories regarding amps I have built from this website. But I want to tell you something about objectivity of a "good" sound.
By "good" I mean something important in audio, which is the music it intends to produce. A music that should give you enjoyment when listening to it.
It is easy to be impressed with a new thing, amp or sound. But trust me, an amp that give you enjoyment will tend to always stay with you. It wont be a one night affair.
Immature designers will argue endlessly, but the smarter ones will learn, even from the most stupid "audiophile".
From the assumption that good amps (or speaker) should "last forever", I tried to find out the "classics" from every amplifier brands, then looked for the schematics, and studied and found similarities. And you know what, I found that many designers are so dumb. You usually cannot argue with most of electronics engineers or designers because they tend to think that they know everything. (Once I found a famous amp brand but the sound was so bad, and it was not sold well like its predecessor. I opened it and found that the components are very good and expensive. Checked the schematic, and I couldn't believe how wouldn't they know).
If many designers are blind from designing a good sounding class-AB amps, how can they design a good sounding class-D amp??? Yes, I believe it is possible to design a good sounding class-D amp because at least it already wins in the dynamics area where it is very important for good music. But who is going to do the difficult things of avoiding the issues? It's just like designing a good DAC chip or opamp, it could be very costly and surely is difficult. But you know what, if you keep using the power supply as it is, the "problem" will always be there. And I think the previous post about asking for a distortion spectrum is really important at the very least to find out how the amp will "sound".
Well, you don't need to prove to everyone that you really enjoy your system. Congratulation, because from my observation and experience, I have seen many audiophiles chasing ghost trying to find enjoyment that they cannot achieve from their system. That's because when they hear a great new thing, they run after it, leaving behind what is more important.
Jay, I agree with when you write about bad designers and lot of them live selling average but so expensive products. Experienced ears of different people can judge sound very similar but every person "feel" music in own way, personal way. You said enjoyment and that is it. People build own system around that. I can speak about me, and that is subjective, every time when I listen live music, most often on classical concerts, I say: music is so soft but still so detailed, dynamic is so big but never to loud, I can hear background instruments so clear and close etc..That is more or less what I try to find in my system: soft, emotional and rich but with lot of details and background clarity. Most probably that is what you call objective.
But will tell, you, same way as designers who have all world schools for building bad equipment, are different ears: I was so disappoint how many experienced people like different sound than me (maybe my ears are not so accurate 🙂 )
P.S. Trap is when diy work begin to be more important then music.
But will tell, you, same way as designers who have all world schools for building bad equipment, are different ears: I was so disappoint how many experienced people like different sound than me (maybe my ears are not so accurate 🙂 )
P.S. Trap is when diy work begin to be more important then music.
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