Hello. First time poster here 🙂
I have been following this discussion. I have been contemplating building my own speakers for a while since I feel my Avance Acoustics need an upgrade and since I came across a brief review of 2000 dollar a pair (Insane Danish prices) DLS R66 2.5 way floor stander. These are well regarded here in DK and I have no doubt that they are in fact quite good for the price range. However the review showed the actual drivers of the speaker and it really wasn’t much to look at. A real cheap (looked it up) tweeter and what appeared to be no name OEM stamped chassis woofers. I looked in to the Danish prices for drivers and filter components and quickly realized that a similar build would be much cheaper and most likely better for the same money, given the right KIT. At this point I would not be able to construct my own…
On the other hand I found another speaker with known driver configuration called XTZ 99.26. mk II. This is a medium sized 2 way 6.5” and a ribbon tweeter. It has a seas Excel woofer, a Fountek cd3.0 and a decent filter. These retails for a little over 1200 USD a pair and with the local component prices in mind I would not be able to build a clone for the same money if I wanted a decent or similar high gloss finish.
As it stands it seems to me the price/value proposition is not that clear cut when measured on the included components alone. It might be a different story if sonic performance is included. I had a brief listen to the aforementioned XTZ in the MK I edition. I really didn’t like it despite its fine drivers. Really dull and boxy sound.
Dan
I have been following this discussion. I have been contemplating building my own speakers for a while since I feel my Avance Acoustics need an upgrade and since I came across a brief review of 2000 dollar a pair (Insane Danish prices) DLS R66 2.5 way floor stander. These are well regarded here in DK and I have no doubt that they are in fact quite good for the price range. However the review showed the actual drivers of the speaker and it really wasn’t much to look at. A real cheap (looked it up) tweeter and what appeared to be no name OEM stamped chassis woofers. I looked in to the Danish prices for drivers and filter components and quickly realized that a similar build would be much cheaper and most likely better for the same money, given the right KIT. At this point I would not be able to construct my own…
On the other hand I found another speaker with known driver configuration called XTZ 99.26. mk II. This is a medium sized 2 way 6.5” and a ribbon tweeter. It has a seas Excel woofer, a Fountek cd3.0 and a decent filter. These retails for a little over 1200 USD a pair and with the local component prices in mind I would not be able to build a clone for the same money if I wanted a decent or similar high gloss finish.
As it stands it seems to me the price/value proposition is not that clear cut when measured on the included components alone. It might be a different story if sonic performance is included. I had a brief listen to the aforementioned XTZ in the MK I edition. I really didn’t like it despite its fine drivers. Really dull and boxy sound.
Dan
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The price of DIY over here is ridiculous, as even with cheap drivers (something like the Veravox 3/Omnes Audio BB3.AL) at 20Euro/ea, you have spend £50 in total just getting them into the country! By the time you have added wood, binding posts, filling etc its £100.
I have a pair of small 80's monitors that use a Seas 11F-GX, I am going to do a modern version using the 'new' version of the driver, and thats the CA12RCY. Its about £60/ea at least, the tweeter about £30/ea. So with the crossover and wood, you are looking at £300. The speakers only cost £75!
My old ATC SCM7/SCM10 both cost around £300, you would not be able to make them for less.
I have a pair of small 80's monitors that use a Seas 11F-GX, I am going to do a modern version using the 'new' version of the driver, and thats the CA12RCY. Its about £60/ea at least, the tweeter about £30/ea. So with the crossover and wood, you are looking at £300. The speakers only cost £75!
My old ATC SCM7/SCM10 both cost around £300, you would not be able to make them for less.
I often use Loudspeaker Design| Loudspeaker Drive Units| Loudspeaker Measurement, Restoration, Repair Services Prices for drivers are not over the top, but not cheap as well. Unfortunately I have to agree that most of the time buying from US (madisound for example) and paying the shipping + tax + vat comes cheaper than buying from europe-audio for example. Also madisound has very tempting hot offers regularly. I wish I was in the US 🙄
I recently build a 2way bookshelf with second hand drivers which came to about 200£ and I have to agree that for the same money you can buy better sounding speakers, but I find the thrill in building everything from scratch to be priceless.
No doubt that proper DIY speakers for ££££ will outperform such from a big manufacturer costing £££££.
I recently build a 2way bookshelf with second hand drivers which came to about 200£ and I have to agree that for the same money you can buy better sounding speakers, but I find the thrill in building everything from scratch to be priceless.
No doubt that proper DIY speakers for ££££ will outperform such from a big manufacturer costing £££££.
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I don't think we can blame the tax regime in the UK.
Manufacturers/Importers have been allowed price their product upto what they think we the consumers are prepared to pay. Then the retailers jump on that bandwagon and offer 50% off the ridiculously inflated suggested retail price.
We pay up thinking we have got a bargain. We the consumers are much of the problem.
We either look for the biggest discounts irrespective of value for money, or we buy the cheapest imported crap that is too cheap to complain about the product not reaching it's first birthday.
I'd guess this is getting closer to the problem.
Manufacturers/Importers have been allowed price their product upto what they think we the consumers are prepared to pay. Then the retailers jump on that bandwagon and offer 50% off the ridiculously inflated suggested retail price.
We pay up thinking we have got a bargain. We the consumers are much of the problem.
We either look for the biggest discounts irrespective of value for money, or we buy the cheapest imported crap that is too cheap to complain about the product not reaching it's first birthday.
I bought a pair of the Silver Iris 10" Coaxials a good few years back from Hawthone Audio. They cost around $400USD (£200 at the time including shipping/duty/VAT) which was a bargain, one of the drivers magnets was not aligned properly, so they arranged for a new one to be sent out, but did not want the old one back as it would £70 ($150USD) just to ship it back!
As the exchange rate has gone down since, it makes it less value to buy from the US, but as mentioned, still sometimes works out cheaper when the VAT and Import Duty has been included!
As the exchange rate has gone down since, it makes it less value to buy from the US, but as mentioned, still sometimes works out cheaper when the VAT and Import Duty has been included!
The problem in the UK is simple, the market for bare drivers for consumer use is just too small for any decent economies of scale. Is Wilmslow going to buy 200 of a particular driver to get a decent bulk discount, when they may only sell a couple of dozen a year?
Hi,
When I came to the UK in the mid 90's there where quite a few Places selling drivers at quite reasonable prices. There where Tandy/Radoishack's in the High Streets carrying the Radioshack driver lines and Maplin stocked excellent fayre from Audax at reasonable cost (including the 10mm Tweeters, 34mm Softdome and nice 8" Woofers suitable for a BC1 inspired Speaker) and many kits, like the Velleman K4040 Tube Amp that could drive such a BC1 inspired speaker very well... There where many places carrying tubes and related paraphernalia as well.
Most of these are out of business, basically because of lack of business more than the high cost of doing business, others no longer carry much DIY stuff. Britain used to have the occasional "DIY Supplement" in HiFi World and even that seems history.
Contrast with Germany and the USA, where each has quite a few a places that sell drivers and other stuff, at prices that are locally affordable and where DIY seems to thrive. Germany alone has two printed mags each that publish bi-monthly and where each issue tends to present at least a handful of Speaker projects plus numerous web based "mags", the US has AudioXpress and a very active Web Scene...
I would say the British DIY'ers themselves are to blame more than any other factor, for failing to support these shops and mail order businesses. If you got and do not use it, you loose it. No point now crying over spilled milk...
Ciao T
When I came to the UK in the mid 90's there where quite a few Places selling drivers at quite reasonable prices. There where Tandy/Radoishack's in the High Streets carrying the Radioshack driver lines and Maplin stocked excellent fayre from Audax at reasonable cost (including the 10mm Tweeters, 34mm Softdome and nice 8" Woofers suitable for a BC1 inspired Speaker) and many kits, like the Velleman K4040 Tube Amp that could drive such a BC1 inspired speaker very well... There where many places carrying tubes and related paraphernalia as well.
Most of these are out of business, basically because of lack of business more than the high cost of doing business, others no longer carry much DIY stuff. Britain used to have the occasional "DIY Supplement" in HiFi World and even that seems history.
Contrast with Germany and the USA, where each has quite a few a places that sell drivers and other stuff, at prices that are locally affordable and where DIY seems to thrive. Germany alone has two printed mags each that publish bi-monthly and where each issue tends to present at least a handful of Speaker projects plus numerous web based "mags", the US has AudioXpress and a very active Web Scene...
I would say the British DIY'ers themselves are to blame more than any other factor, for failing to support these shops and mail order businesses. If you got and do not use it, you loose it. No point now crying over spilled milk...
Ciao T
There are what.. 2 Major Driver suppliers now in the US - Parts Express and Madisound. (..there are others but no others that are really comparable.) The US spans a MUCH larger region, and typically has homes that are much more compatible for DIY.
Wimslow as the major source in the UK.
Ex. Fostex FE206En
US:
Madisound Speaker Store
UK:
Fostex FE206En
Currency conversion from UK to US: 156.951 USD
$48.92 difference
I'm betting that more than 90% of that difference is solely attributed to all the various taxes throughout the "chain" - and this would include increased prices due to higher wage costs.
that £98 does not include Value Added Tax (VAT).
That is the major tax we will pay. I suspect import tax is lower than VAT.
That brings the retail price to £118.46 ~ $185.93
What is the retail price to a US citizen after sales tax is added?
US has the opportunity for 10% quantity discount. You and a few friends club together.
Where are Fostex made?
That is the major tax we will pay. I suspect import tax is lower than VAT.
That brings the retail price to £118.46 ~ $185.93
What is the retail price to a US citizen after sales tax is added?
US has the opportunity for 10% quantity discount. You and a few friends club together.
Where are Fostex made?
Fostex is a Japanese Co. $103 @ Madisound orders over $100 ship free in the U.S. and because I don't live in the State where Madisound is located I don't pay tax. I am blessed.
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Wharfedale CR30.4 Black | Speakers Per Pair | Richer Sounds
with some tweaks you can make a decent speaker out of this
with some tweaks you can make a decent speaker out of this
I looked into importing from the US once because the $ price is usually numerically equal to the £ price here but once duty&excise and VAT has been added there is usually no difference in cost and sometimes buying here works out cheaper.
I'm in Northern Ireland and I get screwed over even more. Most of the big companies will not ship to Northern Ireland from the Mainland or will add exorbitant postage costs its an absolute disgrace.
I have found in the past that the only way to get my hands on drivers at a reasonable price is second hand e.g. eBay, from the states or from Europe purely because the cost of shipping to N.I. from Germany is the same as that to Mainland U.K.
I have found in the past that the only way to get my hands on drivers at a reasonable price is second hand e.g. eBay, from the states or from Europe purely because the cost of shipping to N.I. from Germany is the same as that to Mainland U.K.
Hi,
Well, I guess you could.
I did something like that a while back, out of necessity (I wanted to buy a pair of Samson Rubicon 5 plus Sub, but could not get them for love or money - out of stock).
So I bought a pair of cheap tower speakers that sounded ok at first blush for around 100 Euro.
After a few weeks I "tweaked" it by replacing the main 6.5 Driver with one that could run "open" and gave the woofer a real crossover, plus a single cap on the tweeter.
My next step was to step by step replace the other Drivers with ones having decent quality over several more month.
In the end the cheap box was what held the system back, so I replaced that too after around a year and a halve (without spending more than halve of that time in my second place where these speakers where).
Total retained parts of the original Speaker? Zip. Nada. So I basically threw away 100 Euro's. Of course, it gave me a chance to do things in small steps, spend very little money on each step and have some fun on the way.
I am sure this is a viable way for someone to get into DIY or such, but I still ended up spending around 600 Euro extra (around 250 Euro Drivers, 250 Euro for box and fittings, 100 for crossover parts) on top of the 100 Euro's I paid to buy cheap, to make a decent pair of speakers which do not sound bad next to many a serious High End Speaker systems...
This one BTW:
This uses a 15cm Alu Cone "wideband" as midrange, 26cm Alu Cone Woofer, HiVi Circular Planar tweeter, first order series crossover at 300Hz/3KHz, is all silver wired (except bass), copper foil inductors, film caps.
The enclosure is one sold cheap locally, made from MDF and were horribly resonant, before I lined the inside with 20mm thick stone...
So I COULD have saved money overall by not buying cheap speakers and start tweaking them and instead building something descent to start with...
I am sure if you take the same route I did on the tweaks the Warfedale CR30 will no doubt make a decent speaker...😀
Ciao T
Well, I guess you could.
I did something like that a while back, out of necessity (I wanted to buy a pair of Samson Rubicon 5 plus Sub, but could not get them for love or money - out of stock).
So I bought a pair of cheap tower speakers that sounded ok at first blush for around 100 Euro.
After a few weeks I "tweaked" it by replacing the main 6.5 Driver with one that could run "open" and gave the woofer a real crossover, plus a single cap on the tweeter.
My next step was to step by step replace the other Drivers with ones having decent quality over several more month.
In the end the cheap box was what held the system back, so I replaced that too after around a year and a halve (without spending more than halve of that time in my second place where these speakers where).
Total retained parts of the original Speaker? Zip. Nada. So I basically threw away 100 Euro's. Of course, it gave me a chance to do things in small steps, spend very little money on each step and have some fun on the way.
I am sure this is a viable way for someone to get into DIY or such, but I still ended up spending around 600 Euro extra (around 250 Euro Drivers, 250 Euro for box and fittings, 100 for crossover parts) on top of the 100 Euro's I paid to buy cheap, to make a decent pair of speakers which do not sound bad next to many a serious High End Speaker systems...
This one BTW:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This uses a 15cm Alu Cone "wideband" as midrange, 26cm Alu Cone Woofer, HiVi Circular Planar tweeter, first order series crossover at 300Hz/3KHz, is all silver wired (except bass), copper foil inductors, film caps.
The enclosure is one sold cheap locally, made from MDF and were horribly resonant, before I lined the inside with 20mm thick stone...
So I COULD have saved money overall by not buying cheap speakers and start tweaking them and instead building something descent to start with...
I am sure if you take the same route I did on the tweaks the Warfedale CR30 will no doubt make a decent speaker...😀
Ciao T
Hi,
The're decent enough as it is IMO, but possibly amenable to some tweaks.
Changing drivers - you might as well start from scratch with better drivers,
a better c/o and a better cabinet, but they won't cost a total of £130.
Tweaks I'd consider, once I'd worked out how to get them apart :
1) Fiddling with the c/o at the top end to suit taste, room, system.
2) Bass/mid driver chassis mods, ductseal type of mods.
2) Possibly better c/o caps depending what and where fitted.
3) Applying a damping layer to the PR/ABR to also detune it a little.
4) Possibly add some bitumastic type cabinet wall damping.
5) Checkout and possibly improve driver mounting integrity.
6) Possibly improve internal damping / stuffing arrangements.
7) I would not convert them to bi-wiring.
8) Really pushing the boat out add some steel side panels to them,
affixed by contact adhesive to form a constrained layer of damping.
All of the above would help, but your still looking at relatively budget drivers, in
nice plastic housings, simple c/o, in a nicely finished and shaped but cheap box.
None of the above are going to happen to my friends pair of them, not the type.
rgds, sreten.
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I think cab damping is the most logical and most user friendly option, anyone can do this without too much analysis.
It is also possible through cleaning up cab resonance you would expose how poor the dirt cheap drive units are. Ringing dustcaps might be more tolerable with a bit a cabinet boom.
While you were improving the crossover I suspect you could change the tweeters to something better relatively affordably too. Why go to all that effort though.
It is also possible through cleaning up cab resonance you would expose how poor the dirt cheap drive units are. Ringing dustcaps might be more tolerable with a bit a cabinet boom.
While you were improving the crossover I suspect you could change the tweeters to something better relatively affordably too. Why go to all that effort though.
Hi,
Whilst some cheap drivers are very poor, it is also the
case some are surprisingly very good for what they are.
Realistically the drivers have to cheap but not poor, some are.
My point is they are likely (and sound it) to be far better than the
utter dross stuff you can get nowadays at Maplin or from Skytronic,
and admittedly the very budget end of the market for speakers.
My point again is upgrading drivers is defeating the object,
here I cannot see the point cost effectively, YMMV.
What I'm getting at is it's impossible IMO to build a good budget
speaker unless you go and want the FR route and limitations.
rgds, sreten.
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