Boy, this thread moved fast......sorry to quote a post from 6+ pages back but I agree...the whole idea of subjectivity is based on "dog and pony show/salesmen tricks" to SELL someone else on a belief. Scientific data removes the magic dust that tricks the large majority. One thing I have learn over 25+ years of dabbling in the world of audio is that audiophiles/musicians tend to love using imagination as their #1 data source for conclusions
On the plus side they are lucky to have incredibly creative minds that allows for their imagination to run wild.
Last edited:
Through the Years: Tony Bennett is a great test for this. Some rough sounding tracks on this one. Those 4K peaks will shred your ears. Get things right, tho and it's all very enjoyable. A good test disc.
It depends what XO you have and what performance parameters you need.
The TAD TD-2001 will play down to 700Hz and Geddes has proven B&C DE250s actually play pretty well down to even 800Hz. (he has also posted already confirming his XOs).
Im also one of those that thinks XO points below 1KHz is superior to any XO over 1KHz. btw,The world of 2-way waveguides is full of 1200 to 1500Hz XOs but none that I thought sounded good enough.
I still would love to have a properly controlled listening test with the following speakers.
Pi Speakers Pi3 (upgraded TD12S + DE250)
Geddes Summas
JBL K2000s
Danley SH50s
Im a Home Theater guy so dynamics and controlled directivity are top priorities. Speakers with domes have too much distortion IMO.
Dave
The assertion was that there are no speakers designed as he said. Mine are, at least to the extent possible. As correctly stated in some previous posts, CD is not really achieveable at LFs, but then its also not really necessary, so there really isn't a problem with CD being limited to above some frequency, unless that frequency gets above 1-2 kHz, then its an issue. As long as CD is maintained down to 500-700 Hz everything is fine.
The premise that speakers should be designed to better integrate with the room is quite correct IMO.
But maybe I have the premis and the assertion mixed up.
The assertion was that there are no speakers designed as he said. Mine are, at least to the extent possible. As correctly stated in some previous posts, CD is not really achieveable at LFs, but then its also not really necessary, so there really isn't a problem with CD being limited to above some frequency, unless that frequency gets above 1-2 kHz, then its an issue. As long as CD is maintained down to 500-700 Hz everything is fine.
The premise that speakers should be designed to better integrate with the room is quite correct IMO.
But maybe I have the premis and the assertion mixed up.
Last edited:
2" drivers don't go high enough and there is nothing that you can do to extend them so they need another driver up high. A 1" driver will do well above 10 kHz, although its loosing a bit of stability. But with a good design they can be extended down to below 1 kHz. This allows for a high power design with only a single crossover and no crossover in the critical range of 1-4 kHz.
In a home a 1" driver below 1 kHz is never a problem since in almost all cases these devices are thermal limited and in a home they are never going to get that warm. I have never seen a compression driver damaged from excursion, but I have seen dozens of them with burnt voice coils.
In a "good" CD design the drive violtage has to be increased with frequemncy at about 6 dB/oct. This means lots and lots of HF voltage, and little to no excursion. With this situation, if you clip the amp - and in clubs this is "all of the time" - then the haramonics are amplified and well above the passband. They do nothing but heat up the coil.
Last edited:
If that's addressed to me, the answer is, no, I wouldn't consider anything that did not use a waveguide. Waveguides have huge benefits and, except for cost and complexity, few drawbacks. The complexity is not an issue for me and I have gotten the cost under control, so I'm not looking at anything else.
Based on the design of your speakers, I'd be in shock if you didn't. I think most audiophiles would agree with you. I'm not one of them.
You don't agree that my speakers have frequency rersponses that are independent of direction? Its not like that is a matter of opinion, the data is there for all to see.
What is it that you don't agree with?
Yeah, it was directed at you Earl, I was curious what your opinion was.
I've not heard any of your speakers, so I can't really comment on them. I am curious to know though...waveguides seem, at least superficially, fairly easy to implement for larger speaker manufacturers, I wonder why we don't see them used more.
I've not heard any of your speakers, so I can't really comment on them. I am curious to know though...waveguides seem, at least superficially, fairly easy to implement for larger speaker manufacturers, I wonder why we don't see them used more.
I would submit in the past horns were mostly done wrong and didn't yield very good results, hence the bad reputation. Doing them right is not so easy and some things are patented. I haven't seen many, if any, other speakers using waveguides that I would say were actually done technically correct.
There are lots of other people who have compared my speakers to other designs, so there is no shortage of comments in this regard.
Downside of "good" waveguides - size, there is no substitute for size. A 1" tweeter or an 18" waveguide is kind of a no-brainer for most manufacturers.
They are a good implementation of a horn and woofer (12 or 15). It's a classic combo - what's not to like?
They are a good implementation of a horn and woofer (12 or 15). It's a classic combo - what's not to like?
Oh, they're on my wishlist for sure, but so are a looooooooot of things, lol.
Perhaps this gives us some clue as to why we do not see Waveguides:
Mackie - Active vs. Passive
"Wave guides for better treble dispersion."
"Wave guides aren't a new concept, but they're next to impossible to use in a passive system because they also induce a frequency amplitude shift. An active system can electronically compensate, providing both wide dispersion and flat frequency response"
Gedlee speaker designs sacrifice bass extension for sensitivity to match the waveguide drivers.
Extremely large passive box waveguide designs which produce very little bass by themselves would understandably be commercial suicide. You simply could not find enough customers for this no compromise design philosophy. I imagine this is the case even in the pro market these days.
No wonder no one uses them if Dr Geddes is right!
If Dr Geddes is actually alone in getting waveguides right they are clearly immensely difficult to work with, in fact they are simply not remotely practical in passive designs or even commercially viable as the speakers have to be so large yet produce little bass by themselves, a toxic combination for real world sales.
Waveguides clearly then better suit active and/or diy solutions and the ultra specialist/extremist market such as Dr Geddes customer base or perhaps the largest studios.
I find it slightly bemusing that people ask Dr Geddes about other tweeter designs, that is designs other than compression drivers in very large waveguides.
Mackie - Active vs. Passive
"Wave guides for better treble dispersion."
"Wave guides aren't a new concept, but they're next to impossible to use in a passive system because they also induce a frequency amplitude shift. An active system can electronically compensate, providing both wide dispersion and flat frequency response"
Gedlee speaker designs sacrifice bass extension for sensitivity to match the waveguide drivers.
Extremely large passive box waveguide designs which produce very little bass by themselves would understandably be commercial suicide. You simply could not find enough customers for this no compromise design philosophy. I imagine this is the case even in the pro market these days.
No wonder no one uses them if Dr Geddes is right!
If Dr Geddes is actually alone in getting waveguides right they are clearly immensely difficult to work with, in fact they are simply not remotely practical in passive designs or even commercially viable as the speakers have to be so large yet produce little bass by themselves, a toxic combination for real world sales.
Waveguides clearly then better suit active and/or diy solutions and the ultra specialist/extremist market such as Dr Geddes customer base or perhaps the largest studios.
I find it slightly bemusing that people ask Dr Geddes about other tweeter designs, that is designs other than compression drivers in very large waveguides.
They are a good implementation of a horn and woofer (12 or 15). It's a classic combo - what's not to like?
I had JBL 4430's for many years (like 15), now I find them unlistenable, so its not like ALL horn and woofer combos are great. There have been a lot of improvements in our understanding and the implimentations since the early "classic" designs. And there are still a lot of bad designs out there which hang on to to these out-dated concepts. I find the reference to my designs as a "classic combo" far less than a compliment.
Since this quote is completely untrue, so I doubt that it is the reason. None of my designs are active and I don;t even recommend active since it provides nothing except extra cost.
That good waveguides designs are large and impracticle is most certainly true.
The "compromise" market is saturated, so there is no point in going there.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.